Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain

Discussion in 'Whatever' started by Waterbear, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. Waterbear

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    Cory(aka science patrol)was on the new episode of The Marsham Toy Hour and he explains more about the sofubi process in an hour and a half than I ever thought possible. He delves into how different colors are created. What part of the process determines how thick the vinyl toy comes out. How marbled vinyl costs twice as much per pull. His take on the debate between only calling Japanese made stuff sofubi or if it's just a word that should be used to describe vinyl toys in general(spoiler - even in Japan they use the sofubi word to describe vinyl that is 100% made in China). They even do test pulls of toys in Japan made specifically to be sent to China for production. He explains how if you can get the right material it doesn't matter if it's produced in Japan or China. The vinyl will be indistinguishable regardless of where it's made. The difference is if they are using liquid vinyl(like they do in Japan and like Unbox does)or if they are using some kind of vinyl powder that needs to be mixed with liquid at the factory itself which seems to be pretty low quality as far as the end result. Paint masks for toys can cost more than the wax and mold combined! Cory has made almost 50 toys all his very own. He even talks about the toxicity of SkullBrain itself and how frustrating it can be when people here try to push new people away from making vinyl just because they are new.

    Easily the most informative and interesting vinyl discussion I've ever heard.

    https://marshamtoyhour.podbean.com/
     
  2. JoeMan

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    Good listen. Sometimes I forget how much specialty knowledge goes into collecting this stuff. From just familiarizing yourself with artists/brands to following their unique release information, to visiting Japanese web stores or knowing the physical stores. To hear even western toy collectors struggle with understanding it all, you have to wonder how overwhelming it can be to a new collector.
     
  3. Waterbear

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    It really is such a deep rabbit hole. Not only for collectors but for toy makers as well. Even two of the people on the podcast who have had toys made in Japan and China still didn't know the intricate details behind the process. I love stuff like this that sheds lights on so many misconceptions that have been around forever.

    I like how he explained that the factory that actually makes the liquid vinyl in specific colors always wants to make a color in a certain amount that would pull around 100 medium sized toys so he asks a bunch of different people if they want that specific color. Explains why you see lots of toy makers get the same color blanks within a pretty short time frame.

    His stance against super expensive toys is pretty awesome too.
     
  4. xSuicide Squadx

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    Even being in the factories for full tours, and pulling myself, he talked about SO much I was completely uneducated to. This was a great listen. It was also really cool to hear about his personal comeuppance of coming to Japan, how he got involved in toys, becoming a wax worker, and now a full on pour/puller in the factory. The one that tripped me out the most was the Chinese vinyl being a powder. I know that Japanese vinyl is liquid, of course, but I had no idea that the Chinese vinyl was powder mixed with oil.
     
  5. Waterbear

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I think it just reinforces the stereotype to say liquid vinyl is Japanese and the powder is Chinese. All of the vinyl comes from China, I believe the places in Japan people like Cory buy vinyl are just creating the colors, not the vinyl itself. Medicom produces mountains of vinyl in China including all the Vinyl Artist Gacha series stuff with the same vinyl used in Japan. The Michael Skattum stuff and I think most of the Violence Toy stuff is made in China in a factory that uses liquid vinyl. Unbox uses it too. Calling it Japanese vinyl because it's liquid makes it sound like they get all this stuff from Japan which isn't the case at all. The difference is usually the way they use the vinyl. Like Cory said he refers a lot of people to China for production simply because they can do complicated things that can't be done the way he pulls vinyl. Difficult angles and joints that require specific machines to be made.

    The whole Japanese vinyl versus Chinese vinyl thing is a myth. What matters is the kind of vinyl used and who is using it. The location is all but meaningless.
     
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  6. TattooDougHardy

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    But the vinyl and how it's made into a plastisol that is slush cast seems to be the issue in a lot of ways. The company that makes the plastisol from Japan makes a superior product. Whether or not someone a company like Bandai, X-Plus, or Medicom have that material sent to the factories in China or the plastics company has a branch that produces it there is a question I have.
     
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  7. TattooDougHardy

    TattooDougHardy Comment King

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    But yeah it was a great interview for sure. I was unaware on the times needed for the initial hardening of the soft vinyl before pouring out and then curing again. Also it was neat learning about the device used for cutting out circle joint caps on the vinyl.
     
  8. zapatoloco

    zapatoloco Comment King

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I believe Kobayashi manufactures its plastisol in Japan. And I've seen big cans of Kobayashi in Japanese vinyl casting workshops. But perhaps i am just, such as you are, gaijin-splaining some bullshit i barely understand :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  9. zapatoloco

    zapatoloco Comment King

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    From what i gather Kobayashi started producing Kobasol plastisol at it's Katsushika plant in 1958 and has been manufacturing Kobasol ''...under the technical support from our parent company..'' in Hong Kong since 2000 while continuing to manufacture in their Tokyo area Katsushika City plant to this day. Hence, perhaps, even some ''Chinese'' vinyl is actually Japanese !!! Ha !! This all suggests that ',japanese', vinyl is very much a pertinent concept.[​IMG]Screenshot_2018-09-20 Google Maps by zapatoloco, sur Flickr
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  10. zindabad

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    Goddamn. I've been looking for my first podcast ever for a minute, and it looks like this is the one.
     
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  11. xSuicide Squadx

    xSuicide Squadx Super Deformed

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    This is essentially what I was told is the case. That the raw material comes from China, but the end result, final product is of Japanese method and creation. So in that regard, there absolutely is a difference between the two regional products of vinyl. I can definitely tell the difference between a Medicom China produced soft vinyl toy, and a toy pulled from Obitsu or Shirahama Seikei. To say the difference is a myth is simply untrue, and I don’t think that’s what Cory was sayin’ in the podcast. Otherwise, why would Chinese factories be hitting him up angrily asking for Japanese vinyl?
     
  12. Roger

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    This was a really fantastic interview. Cory did an excellent job of explaining the history and the process of sofubi toy making. And he totally nailed the "gatekeeping" that happens at Skullbrain. ;p
     
  13. badteethcomics

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I've never felt a chinese made vinyl toy (including well disguised Unbox/Medicom releases) that has the same feeling (both physically and spiritually lol) as an M1Go or Gargamel toy for example. I reckon quite a few members here could even do a blindfolded touch-test and pick out japanese vs chinese imitation glossy soft vinyl, both pulled from chrome plated molds.

    Even if the vinyl is almost chemically identical, there are other factors that put a lot of sofubi collectors off Chinese vinyl. The burn marks, the bad smell, the careless industrial looking joints (at least most japanese makers take care that arms/heads don't look completely disjointed when they are turned - there's some artistry there), the bubbles/streaked/clammy feeling clear vinyl, muddy marbling, etc.

    Even if the chemicals are there, and it's a similar recipe - the level of craftmanship cannot be matched. That's why we all love these crazy japanese monsters :)
     
  14. JoeMan

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I don’t know if I agree about the gatekeeping. And truthfully I think the hosts might have bias against SB because some people here have been vocal they didn’t like some Japanese made toys they produced.
    I think some people on SB just expect that people participate a little before trying to sell them something and I don’t think that’s wrong. Plenty of first time toy makers who never joined this forum have someone here start a thread because they made a really cool toy and never signed up to use the forum as an advertising platform.
     
  15. Roger

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I've always ignored those people and I never understood why others didn't do the same.

    Regarding the Chinese figures, I've handled a few of them that were extremely high quality and indistinguishable from Japanese-made products. I was recently at a con with an "expert" who was very surprised to find out that a Chinese-made figure wasn't from a Japanese factory. Whatever they're doing over there, they seem to have mastered it.
     
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  16. Anti Social Andy

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I got no clue who any of the hosts or Science Patrol are, or know of anything they've made . . . and have no idea if I'm considered one of the 'gatekeepers' (I like that moniker though!), but that was a cool podcast and highlights how the Japanese toy business works best . . . sure, everyone needs to cover costs and make a few ¥¥¥, but respect, reciprocal favours and friendly deals, trades and helping each other out go a long way to smoothing the process and keeping shit fun.

    With regards to the Japanese vs Chinese debate . . . . unsure if it's snobbery but I always consider Japan the spiritual home for kaiju and sofubi and would always prefer to support that market over the 'me too' Chinese manufacturers (this from a guy that collects BxH and recognises/accepts that it's never the greatest quality).
     
  17. ungawa222

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I think some credit for this recent mastery is due to Dan Willett and Unbox. It would seem Dan began his enterprise with a good grasp of the perceived difference in Japanese vs Chinese-made vinyl, and has worked to raise the QC bar much higher for Unbox's Chinese-made stuff. The flaws in some of their early products attest to this: burn marks, bubbles, inconsistent thicknesses and excessive PVC stink, in a nutshell. Unbox greatly improved their quality along the way (again, props to Dan for being very courteous and responsive to buyers, when these issues were raised), and it would seem that in turn (or concurrently, at least) the bar's been raised for other China-based producers.

    The kinds of QC issues I listed above are completely appreciable-to-anyone qualities that we "gatekeeper" aficionados have historically disdained in vinyl toys produced outside of the Japanese small-batch methods and materials which, for better or worse, "sofubi" came to be shorthand for. The hosts seemed much relieved of our tyranny when Cory "debunked" the "sofubi" JP vinyl myth... but I would echo what's been said above: in describing all that he's learned, Cory presents that, though the gap has now certainly narrowed (if not closed), historically it has been a very different production process in Japan. Much smaller numbers; oversight of all aspects by smaller groups of people; lack of many of the more problematic, end-product-affecting aspects of Chinese factory labor and management; and a base material that arrives for use in liquid form. This last is a major technical point: a separate company doing automated, batched mixing to create a ready-to-pour, perfectly formulated liquid versus a project-by-project mixing of powder and oil done at the toy factory? As someone with extensive experience working with/prepping art and art-adjacent compounds and materials of all sorts, I can tell you there will be no contest, in terms of end-product consistency.

    Also- that was an excellently informative listen- thanks to Cory for doing, and the Marsham people for hosting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  18. 3wing

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    The skullbrain community has it's share of edge lords, but it is what it is. It's notorious in the toy community. If people can't handle heat, they dont come to skullbrain. There is most definitely gatekeeping. You just got to climb over the gate.
     
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  19. Sokko

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    ^^^
    Well put. Although many others have also walked right through the gate by playing nicely in the sandbox. :)
     
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  20. The Moog

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    Thanks for posting, i enjoyed that, it was very illuminating. One thing though, the young man being interviewed seemed confused. Everything he said sounded like a question. It was very strange. I assume he's probably a bit slow, poor chap.
     
  21. IronPaw

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    If you're referring to Cory, that's just the way he talks. He definitely isn't slow. He is probably also speaking so slow due to the podcast hosts sounding as if they have just heard about sooofooobiii.
     
  22. Anti Social Andy

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    ^^^ I suspect sarcasm! :D:D:D
     
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  23. patrickvaz

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    Perhaps that’s just cuz you’re used to the fast talking junk salesman you’re used to dealing with?
     
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  24. Waterbear

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    One of the main hosts is the guy who sculpted the Dead Beet figures so there is probably some history there considering how that thread went.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  25. Waterbear

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    Science Patrol pulls back the sofubi curtain
    I totally understand why people prefer Japanese made stuff. Be it the history or generally small numbers or the ability to pull vinyl without giant roto machines or even that smell that seems unique to Japanese stuff. The absolute best quality Chinese liquid vinyl made toys I get have no smell whatsoever. Even when the vinyl is perfect and thick and has the exact same feel in hand as the best Japanese stuff there is no scent at all. So I get it. That being said TONS of my Japanese vinyl indie toys have all kinds of issues. I have skullheadbutt figures with small chunks of dark material embedded inside the vinyl for no reason. Even the standard SHB body has the legs offset from one another which gives many of them a permanent lean. I have a couple MVH DX figures with tons of tiny air bubbles in them. I once had a batch of a couple dozen Japanese figures made in a small but well known factory that varied so greatly in thickness lots of them weighed literally half as much as others. I get the love for Japanese stuff but in the end it can be just as flawed as any other toy made in any other place. I think people tend to be more critical of non-japanese stuff but that's fine with me because like you said it makes the best people out there try even harder and do even better.
     
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