44th American President discussion thread.

Discussion in 'Whatever' started by bryce_r, Aug 29, 2008.

  1. Roger

    Roger Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    Yeah, but no income tax would be a better thing. Put a flat tax on all goods and services and remove tax exemption status for everybody.

    Now that would qualify as "change."
     
  2. m3kcomp

    m3kcomp Side Dealer

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    I see the playbook got delivered, has been read, and is being followed.

    The next president is guaranteed at least a few Supreme Court nominations...if it's another hardcore conservative, Roe V. Wade is in jeopardy...really. Then, it would probably be brought down to the state level...which would mean some really ugly scenes in those "red" areas of our country...

    whether or not that's a "good point" it's a real one...

    All I was saying is that Palin is a pawn...how is that "if you vote for McCain, you're an blank?" (Even though you are...but you're mind is already made up...it won't take reading posts on a BB you don't agree with to solidify that decision).
     
  3. Roger

    Roger Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    But theoretically speaking, isn't that where the abortion issue should be decided, like capital punishment? I imagine that would be more in line with what the founding fathers intended, for both issues.
     
  4. UnderBeit

    UnderBeit Toy Prince

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    yes that would be a change alright. and given the 'flat' rate the government would have to charge, it'd guarantee financial ruin for probably a good 25-30 percent of the population and a major tax increase for all but the wealthiest people. The distribution of wealth in this country is shameful. The flat tax won't ever happen and thank god for that.
     
  5. Zma

    Zma Toy Prince

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    A flat tax on consumers wouldn't be as bad as a flat income tax. The people with the most money are most likely the biggest consumers as well. As long as we can hit them on everything, stocks and whatnot.

    Taxes as we have them set now are just stupid. The upper tax bracket is set much too low and much too light. A decently payed constuction worker actually pays the maximum tax possible.

    The richest 2% are paying the same tax as blue-collar? Fuck that.

    Of course, really, I'd rather see some FDR reform.
     
  6. UnderBeit

    UnderBeit Toy Prince

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    a flat tax, whether you base it on income or spending would devastate the working poor in this country.
     
  7. Zma

    Zma Toy Prince

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    I was just saying it wasn't AS bad, but you're right, it's a horrible idea. And we're already too close to it. Hell, you'd think even at this level it could lead to some sort of horrible inflation and economic recession . . .
     
  8. redhanded

    redhanded Side Dealer

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    If you work hard, you can still achieve the abortion on a cracker fantasy you have lil kitten :)

    I was just pointing out how a lot of people say stuff like "If you don't vote for Obama Hussein you are a ^#%%#!, a racist, or having half a brain, or dumbass, or heaven forbid a gun wielding bible holding Pennsylvanian (the lowest of all blows!)
    So many have invested sooooo much emotion and 'hope' in him they dare not think otherwise and insult others who, in this so called free country, have a different view or an open mind, or as yet undecided.
    If Roe vs Wade gets overturned it will go to the state level and when Roe Vs Wade was passed about 52% of the population were pro-abortion grinding from what I recall in the early 70s. Now from what I recall a few years ago it was about 70% think women should have the right to chose. So I doubt even on a state level it will be over turned and if so it will be a long process beyond our time most likely.
    Keep in mind, there are people in the democratic party that, like me think abortion should be legal, and available, but they also think it should be free! Do I want to pay for it? ummm nope! Whats next, 3 abortions and a tax rebate? A cruise to Alaska?

    So feel free to let me know why I should vote for either candidate.
     
  9. akum6n

    akum6n Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    If the Supreme Court imagined up the right to an abortion, then they can un-imagine it, eh?
     
  10. backtrack

    backtrack S7 Royalty

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    I find it interesting that over here, there is shock and amazement at the fact that McCain even has a chance, it looks like an easy simple choice from outside america.
    Vote Obama. Simple.
    We get alot of coverage of this and look at ameroca from the point of view of how these votes and elected officials (and non elected) effect our lives and future international relations.
    Some of the most right wing, Daily mail reading morons I know are still amazed that McCain has a real chance.

    That says to me that Obama is the only real choice for America and the world, cuz this is important to the world.
    America has become the laughing stock of the world, he stands a chance of giving it the respect it thinks it deserves.
    He really does offer a change, not in his way, not in the capital C Change that he uses, but in a new look down a new road that the republicans can't offer.
    This seems to be the first time since Carter where a new road is out before you guys. I suggest taking the road less travelled, take the chance and see where it leads you.
    We know where it won't lead, and thats a pretty big difference.

    I'm like Miami, I know that there is little choice and difference, but even this little bit will make a huge difference in 4-50 years.
    It's a step away from the damage that Bush has done, which like it or not, is a lot.
     
  11. Roger

    Roger Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    But it would be fair, and it could foster more responsible spending and saving practices.

    And if it was a flat spending tax, you could eliminate thousands of jobs from the IRS and save even more money.
     
  12. Roger

    Roger Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    This idea seems silly to me. The day after Clinton was elected, what did "the world" think? The day after Bush was elected, what did "the world" think?

    It's what the President actually does after they're elected that matters to the world, and time and time again we have been shown that most of what they talk about before of the election has little or no bearing on what they actually do after they're in office.

    Remember Bush 43's statements about how he had no interest in "nation building," remember Clinton's promises about health care that never materialized, remember Bush 41's fateful words, "Read my lips: no new taxes."
     
  13. backtrack

    backtrack S7 Royalty

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    I think you are missing the point.
    The fact is that the damage that GW did is substantial, to compare the current world to the pre bush world is foolish. It's not the same place now. Bush Sr and Clinton did not do anywhere near the damage that GW did, damage which McCain will continue.

    As I said, I think we know where McCain will take us. And it's not a very nice place, Palin only shoves the US further down the road.

    I am still amazed that anyone can take creationism seriously. Seriously enough that it should be taught in school, what? are you a fucking retard? Should we teach about bigfoot too? Fuckin idiot. That disgusts me....
     
  14. UnderBeit

    UnderBeit Toy Prince

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    Yes, these damned people buying gas *and* food *and* insurance realy need to take a good hard look at their spending habits. And yah you'd be able to eliminatea few thousand jobs at the IRS and you'd get the added bonus of eliminating countless hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of jobs across the country as consumer spending takes a dive..
     
  15. Roger

    Roger Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    "Damned?"
     
  16. redhanded

    redhanded Side Dealer

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    The left seems to have so much fear, I think that is where the fault lies for me. IF we elect McCain we get GW again, if we have the fair tax, consumer spending will drop and the poor can't eat blah blah. Can the left really see the future? Seems like just fear mongering to me.

    Those who know history are doomed to repeat it. :)

    As for the fair tax, it would work, empowering people to do what they want with their money is a good idea. I like my money. And it beat given my hard earned money to social programs where half of every dollar is supporting a bureaucracy. And when you get that money instead of the government you can give to whomever you like, give it to a local soup kitchen or some other charity organization. Heaven forbid someone actually do volunteer work, but we dare not get interrupted, we have to read our french situationalist and chug our organic chai lattes. Besides volunteer work is for the religious wackos, let them feed the poor.
     
  17. Roger

    Roger Vintage

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    Who believes this?
     
  18. redhanded

    redhanded Side Dealer

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    Who knows, but most of the charity work is religious volunteer based. Most others feel 'they don't have time' to help others.

    It was a lil tongue in cheek.
     
  19. miami

    miami Comment King

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    There are plenty of bureaucratic boondoggles, but the "government is inherently incompetent and inefficient" line, as an overall theory, is a part of the neocons' 'Starve The Beast' plan, so please don't buy into that fiction. Government programs are like private ones in this respect - There are some good'uns, and there are plenty of bad'uns.

    To begin with the most nightmarish bureaucratic area, look at health care. Private insurance companies spend on the order of ten times as much administering healthcare plans as the government does. I'd like to see Medicare/Medicaid spend a bit more putting cheats in jail, but fraud impacts both public and private plans. Legislatively, it'd be awfully easy to institute single-payer health care - Simply change the Medicare laws so that, instead of applying to the elderly/disabled only, Medicare applies to everyone. One reaction I heard to that suggestion was "But that leaves no role for the private health insurers!" Correct. They would simply have to go and do something else, like so many have before them. I have represented plenty of insurance companies in my career, and while I did so 'zealously,' in accordance with my oath ... You can take my word for it - Insurance companies are the Embodiment of Evil on Earth.

    One problem with flat tax on consumption is that for the megarich it is almost impossible for them to spend even the income their wealth earns passively. It ends up that for Joe Sixpack, who spends 95% of his paycheck stayin' alive, all that 95% gets taxed. But W. Pendleton Bigbux III, who earns 1000 times what Joe earns, rarely spends 1000 times as much - He accumulates wealth instead.

    If you want to see a frightening, fascinating, rarely-exposed inside look at the way US tax policy is manipulated by the wealthy, go read Public Citizen's report on "The 18 Families" at http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf. While we squabble over marginal income rates in the spotlight, these folks are working in the background, manipulating public opinion, trying to pull a scam to cheat the rest of us out of a number in excess of $70 Billion-with-a-B, to keep it in their own (already well-lined) pockets. These are prominent families, familiar names - Mars, Nordstrom, and Walton among them, but what they are doing here is shameful - Nothing would make me happier than to see them exposed for the disingenuous greedheads they really are. Warren Buffett has it about right when he points out that something is wrong when his secretary pays a higher marginal tax rate than he does.

    If your lodestar in voting is "Who will leave me the most $ in my personal pocket?" then the answer is "Probably BO if you currently earn under $200,000 per year, maybe MacBush if you earn more than that." (Do not vote MacBush on the assumption that you're sure to be among the rich yourself just any day now - Just Don't Do That, OK?) But there are other issues that end up costing you much more than federal income taxes - Think about how much we waste on health care alone, because without insurance people let health problems fester and then use the emergency room for primary care. Just instituting a single-payer health care system would save the average US citizen vastly more $ than any tax change we'll ever see.

    As to what the world thinks, one interesting phenomenon reporters have noticed is that in the Third World, when BO's candidacy comes up, the question they most often ask is "Will they let him win?" I do think that just swearing in Barack Hussein Obama as president of the US will alone change some perceptions about the US. It's not really too hard to understand why they hate us now, I mean we RE-elected W! Putting him in office once, I think the world understands that we all get a squishy Milk Dud sometimes - But when we elected him the second time, after we knew better? ... I think a lot of the world justifiably decided then that W (with his arrogance, dishonesty, insensitivity, and just plain ol' dumb Texas Bible-thumping mindset) accurately reflects all of America, and that's really sad.

    Finally - I will share with y'all the way I have resolved some of these "welfare cheats" vs. "Corporate Welfare" clashes in my own mind. First - Assume that you are gonna get ripped off to some extent. Assume that, no matter what, people will continue to exhibit greed and dishonesty. (This is a guaranteed safe assumption.) Second, once you accept that fact, you are left with a much simpler decision -- Who do you wanna be cheated by? Personally, I'd rather be cheated by welfare recipients who spend their food stamps on new furniture, or who work under the table and keep their benefits, than be cheated by the fatcat who spends it on new drapes for his third yacht. Just a personal preference, but if we're gonna be cheated of a certain amount (and ... well, we just are), I'm simply less outraged by poor folks who cheat to survive, or even to get a little something extra for themselves or their kids, than by those who cheat us to add more zeroes to an already obscene net worth.
     
  20. bannedindc

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  21. m3kcomp

    m3kcomp Side Dealer

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    this is going to be interesting...
     
  22. Roger

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    It's a great story, but:

    1) You can put up a photo and say, "This is a photo when she was supposed to be x months pregnant." but it doesn't make it true. How the hell do we know for sure?

    and

    2) The same people who condemned Bill Frist for diagnosing Terry Schiavo via videotape are going to be the first ones who jump on this bandwagon.

    Blue pill or red pill? Hmm...
     
  23. miami

    miami Comment King

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    Heckuva story, and Daily Kos is fairly reliable once it goes this far ... The question is -- how would middle America view it, if it were true? Maybe the vetters found it, and decided it was a net positive? Or maybe they rely on the press' fear of the GOP - It's not like the Bush girls' peccadilloes get much press either ...
     
  24. backtrack

    backtrack S7 Royalty

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    Not to fall onto the conspiracy wagon, but it sounds pretty plausible.
    I did a fair bit of reading about young Mrs Palin and I have to say, the more I read, the scarier she is. And the more I understand the choice. But as has been said before, how exactly someone with the polar opposite views intends to court the Clinton voters is beyond me and is really just insulting to women everywhere.

    This story seems like the sort of thing that might happen in any family, it's not that far fetched and has probably played out in most towns across the world at some point or another, the only difference her is that she up for VP.
    She also seems to have a history of under handedness and twisting things to work in her favour.

    At the end of the day, she hates Polar Bears, that's enough for me to decide she's a whack job, I mean, come on, how could you not want to save this:
    [​IMG]
    She actually sued the Federal Government to keep Polar Bears off the endangered species list - <insert every and any four letter word here>
     
  25. deadboy

    deadboy Comment King

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    Re: McCain picks Palin

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    fuck polar bears!



    Palin is the only women who can tame these savage beasts!!!!!
    [​IMG]
     

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