Okay, so the question is posed a bit with tongue firmly in cheek and a heavy dose of rhetoric on the side, but ranting on about this in another venue had me thinking of what the general thoughts are with respect to freshman releases of toys right now. With the seemingly ever-increasing attention being places on sofubi/soft vinyl and toys in general, I think we are seeing newcomers to the hobby at a rate not seen before. As a whole, it is great; we are seeing the hobby open up and a lot of new makers and creativity come in. But, and maybe I am speaking just for myself here, this flood is also bringing with it a lot of detritus, and leaving our nice, appreciating beaches covered with a load of rubbish. I don't want to name any makers specifically, this is not about calling anyone out, but today I saw the first release info for a toy - which I am sure many would regard as the epitome of fugly in numerous respects (and I am completely fine with that) that I have been following the development of with excitement for some time. But, seeing the - let us say, diplomatically - very 'generous' ask for this - I really had to scratch my head and reflect on where the retail prices have gone for toys lately. The aftermarket [and vintage market, but I am not going to go there] is a whole other beast, but I am speaking just towards pricing of toys from the manufacturers. Of course things have been always on the rise, and we are all dealing with the increased cost of living, some more than others. But I feel like we are reaching a state where even fresh out of the gate toys are virtually inaccessible to the average person who does not have loads of disposable income or unlimited trust funds at the ready. Part of this is a gripe from an old man who has seen the shifts in trends and sales model, but right now it seems to be that with every new release we are seeing a massive price bump in what toys are being sold for. And this is not explained or justified in any other manner other than quoting the price. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people out there in this hobby - some of which we have the fortune of even having on the board - who have put in their years of blood, sweat, tears, research, travelled across the world, stuck it out in the fumes of vinyl pulling, practised away at learning the minutiae of painting skills, learned from their forbearers in the field, handled the flood of emails/PM/DMs, spent late nights packing, made inordinate trips to the post office - in short, they've paid their dues. They have every right to value their toys and work in this regard, and have built fan followings to suit, as they've earned the respect of the community. I am speaking of someone seemingly new, who has not been through this, but just has an idea, makes a new toy, and puts it out there like it is gold. I can't think of many toys now which have had the retails price we are seeing in 2023, and even then the ones which tend to are limited to the 'personal relationship' only type exchanges on highly hyped art toys and such (I am sure everyone knows where the bounds of this lie). But it saddens me and is disheartening to see this trend now bleed into even average toy releases. Ones which I feel are actually about the hobby and appreciation of silly vinyl dollies inspired by Japanese monsters.These should be accessible and the joy and love spread, beyond any notion of value or scarcity. But, I will grant you, that comes from my own way of collecting. There are clear exceptions to this rule, and I will give a specific shout out to @Roger's recent Mudbelly figure as being such a fun, widely available, and affordable toy that brought happiness to a lot of folks I am sure (which is just as it should be). It is not everyone, of course, but I seem to notice a lot of these new people on the scene come into it specifically for, or at least see, some of the crazy prices that are being generated by hyped and 'art toys,' and think that that in itself somehow lends legitimacy to their own creation. So they either think it is on par, or use this sort of pricing to artificially generate hype and demand through the inevitable aftermarket sales. It is a very poor model, but sadly with the undiscerning and large market that sofubi has right now, this evidently works. And because this pays dividends, it only increases, and the next maker comes out and does the same thing, but at an extra level of inflation. It is a self-eating snake. I don't know if this is going to plateau or eventually blow up in all of our collective immature faces, but I am wondering where it is headed. It is not the first rant on this topic, and I am sure will not be the last, but with each passing year of the hobby's development, I feel the shifts we are seeing are massive. So anyhow, a point of reflection for today. Welcome thoughts of the community.
You make a lot of interesting points. There’s been a bunch of new toys that I’ve passed on because straight out the gate the prices have been too high for me. There’s def exceptions, the mud belly being a great example of this. It feels like it’s a lot of short term thinking. Like they need to recoup all the mould and design costs with the very first release and not over the long term like a lot of established artists do. I tend to compare this as well. Would I pay $300 for someone’s first toy when for that I could score a few things off my fav existing makers for the same cost.
^^ This absolutely, Bob. Even with [sadly at the moment lacking] income that affords toy purchases, you definitely - or I certainly do, at any rate - break down every purchase as it is, weighing it out against what those hypothetical pounds will get you. This is true of stuff new, old, retail, and aftermarket. Everything is a balance, and as much as I might be over the moon to shell out whatever asking price to get my hands on a certain toy if I had it, there is always going to be that other side of the coin that '1 of x' might buy you '10 of y', which is no small tradeoff in a lot of situations. Another example I would put out here is Butanohana toys. I've been buying and chasing those for over a decade, and yet, even with all the hype and ridiculous aftermarket that we have seen, with toys fetching thousands, as far as I know - and I could definitely be wrong, since it has been so long since I was able to get one - Ohashi-san never really bumped his retail price. I think original toys, available on the shop site [when you could get them] were 3,750yen* for years (and might well still be). Just to say that there is something also to be said for sticking to your guns in the face of the hype trains (provided it works for your business, of course). I also would never suggest any artist or company takes a loss just because of some whiny toy nerds. I am all too happy to pay fair prices, and compensate the makers [and everyone in that chain, it is not a lone effort of course] for the work and time they put in. * this is just taken from my ever-failing memory
I feel, in some way, it's determined by the maker's mentality. Are they making a toy to try to cash in? Are they making it because they have a passion they want to share? Maybe both? The current trend of creating a singular viral tik tok and suddenly becoming rich may lend to the former. Make that one badass two headed godzilla and be a millionaire! I'm just kind of thinking of why the hype pricing. Me, personally, want things to be priced as reasonably as possible so it's not just impossible to obtain. To me that would mean paying off that mold a little later than you'd like, doing your own assembly and painting, anything you can do yourself to cut outside costs. Not everyone can do this, of course. Maybe you gotta make that money back so you won't be homeless. Life happens. Who knows. At the end of the day charge what you want to charge. Just don't bet the farm on being the next MVH.
this thread made me look back on my invoices and what i charge per toy, and i lose money on every release lol. i am fortunate enough to have multiple sources of income spread throughout various artistic endeavors- toys are just fun for me to make and my life doesn't depend on it. to be fully transparent - my last toy that i did cost over 600,000 yen (last year) and that cost didnt include the sculpt, wax work, or the shipping of toys to america. after all of that, i cut, cleaned, assembled, painted, bought bags, bought header cards, assembled all of that, and shipped them myself. and each figure was $60 at retail for me. its a labor of love but i am happy to do it. i guess i should start charging more hahaha. over time it all balances out (hopefully) as more versions release and sell- and then that money gets funneled back into more production ( or a vintage toy purchase here and there / a trip to japan to sell my toys) at the end of the day people are welcome to charge whatever they want, this is just the way i choose to do things, and it hopefully gets my toys into the hands of people who want them.
This subject is often on my mind. Bob hit it on the nose. Short term thinking. But Michaels response is actually closer to the truth of what it's like for a maker if you don't charge $100 for your tiny 4 piece toy (I.E. the little guys I mostly have made). It drives me insane seeing such high prices on new makers toys, especially overseas makers paying a fraction of what I pay for shipping. But again... Michaels point. Maybe I am just upset that they are smarter than me. I guess i always find a way to make a living at this over the long term. Eventually shit will hit the fan, and I'll still be able (hopefully) to make and sell vinyl toys for the same price I do now, instead of, with my dogtail between my legs, needing to half the cost so people would till pick them up.
All hypothetical but, Which is more understandable/reasonable? A: Start out moderately priced, garner a decent fan base, and overtime, slightly increasing the cost due to cost / labor / ship, adjusting the run sizes + logistical adjustments etc. B: Start out with an expensive price tag, only attract people within that budget, end up with extra stock, only to have to discount later. I think in most cases, artists and customers would choose scenario A. It's just the safer bet. Customers will be more understanding if they are fans of the work. Scenario B alienates so many potential customers before they even have a chance to play with the toy, assuming this is all advertised on social media first. It's not as welcoming of a marketing play. While everyone seems to be thinking about this or similarly, I too have been as well because one day I want to make soft vinyl myself. And I have these long shower thoughts about how I would go about selling / packaging / releasing said toy. I'm going to post again later, but I agree with Bob, Mike and Bwana.
Luckily for me, I collect other toys apart from Sofubi, which means I can focus less on expensive new releases from Japan (with the postage and customs charges that go with them) and buy toys available in my own country. I've also built up a nice sized collection of sofubi, so I don't feel too annoyed about not being able to afford much of it nowadays. The thrill of the hunt can also feel like a stressful burden (the fear of missing-out) ... so I don't miss that aspect of it either. You just have to be realistic with what is attainable, for your level of income/situation. It's a downer, but life ain't always fair. A lot of modern 'sofubi' is not what I think of as sofubi anyway. The material has been appropriated, to add that 'cool' factor to indie toys. Also, when did the lottery system become the norm? Lotteries used to be for established artists who've a large fan base clammering for limited product. To make it 'fairer' and give everyone an equal chance. Not just another hype tool.
You’re just another hype tool! I feel the same way about people who paint customs, especially people like truslithers who would make two mashups with one MVH toy to double his profits. Why would I ever pay Joe Schmo more than I pay the actual artist for a one-off?
I think I know who you are talking about UltraKaiju, the figure is fine, there are things I think could be better. The paint is nice, they are capitalizing on a very hot trend right now. Making a toy that looks like it could be vintage but with all the shine of that brand new plastic and paint. But I think anyone new who prices like that, has missed the reality of the last year. And they might be in for a rude awakening when the number of people willing to buy it actually materializes.
Are you guys talking about the devilman robot bootleg? I can’t remember the price but I remember it was high enough for me not to bother trying
Good thread, great comments all around. It feels like an extension of our discussion on the Futile Toys thread from last year. I think my personal experience is atypical so I don't have much insight. I started this as an extension of my collecting hobby, and all of the actual craft that went into my figure came from other people that I hired. It's a different situation than someone like Michael or Bwana or the other folks in this thread, where the figure is a direct extension of their personal art that they've expressed in different mediums over the course of years. I would expect them to have a different "emotional equation" when trying to figure out pricing. These first time sellers you're talking about are likely very aware that things often sell better because of limited quantities and higher prices. They know this because it probably worked on them. Call it hype or whatever, but there's something in our primate brain that's drawn to that rare brightly colored fruit that makes our mouths water. Some of these sellers realize this and are definitely trying to stroke that part of our brain. I had an interesting conversation with an artist after the last Five Points Fest where he was commenting on the returning artists who were debuting their first vinyl toys. Some of their figures were selling well, others were just sitting. He said that he had seen many of them who started with paintings or resin casts and were looking at that first vinyl toy as the thing that was going to totally transform their life and career, and the crash that happened when it didn't. Perhaps this "great vinyl hope" could also be a factor for some first time sellers when setting prices.
I get rather confused on this issue much of the time because people shit all over new makers with high prices when they make garbage, yet shell out high dollars and give praise for their creativity when it’s something they like. It’s too selective and creates inconsistency, which turns into discourses like this. In my personal opinion high prices right out the gate come out to one of two things, sometimes both: recouping production costs ASAP(which is shit thinking towards collectors. We’re not responsible for paying off your creative endeavors) and cashing in on hype/trends. Very few want to play longevity and create stretches of fans over time and gain legitimate notoriety. Paul, Joe and Dennis, again in my opinion, embody exactly what the gold standard should be. Paul’s Boss was originally something, like, $95 when it debuted and still currently, to this day, sits at $150(sans special releases and micro runs). Joe’s Twins and Kid have consistently stayed between the $65 and $200 mark, also depending on the type of release. Dennis’ Kumon, only recently, have upped from the original $40 retail, and even now he’s still severely undercharging for what he potentially could. For brand new ass artists to come out and think what they’re doing is on par or exceeding a Boss Carrion…fuck off. I know that’s brash, but the aforementioned artists and then some have been at it for a long ass time. They’ve earned that repertoire and increase as their artistry grew and advanced. I’m very well aware of how aggressive and singular my opinion may be, but it’s something I frequently am perturbed by with new makers, the seeming arrogance that comes with believing your first foray into toys, good or bad, demands the same recognition and spoils as seasoned and respected veterans. Obviously some toys come out the gate cool as shit and have an immediate fan base, which is rad, but charging a shitload right away is simply capitalizing on collectors. But that’s more of a moral issue.
I am glad to see that this discussion has sparked some intelligent discourse, as that was the intent. I think precisely because it is completely undefined, and things can run the gamut from one extreme to the other, is it interesting to debate on where sensibility lies. I particularly deeply value the insights and feedback from the makers here who have been through the entire situation [at length, in many case] and can speak to this struggle. Never should anyone be losing any money, though sadly I think many artists do 'undervalue' their work simply for the love and to share it with other folks who appreciate it. This is great in a utopian world, but I really want people to be compensated for the work that they do - and what they give to us - and also equally get the recognition they have earned and deserved. Is art simply worth the price of paints and a sheet of canvas? Well of course not. And in the same way, these toys are more then the sum of their parts and cost. I think both Joe and Robert have sort of hit the nail on the head on many aspects of the personal dilemma I am feeling. Because I am torn on what is reasonable, and certainly I look at other stuff and see people paying much higher for what is, purely in my own mind of course, a lot less. But as we all have our own personal budgets, these things bear reflecting upon. It can be a sliding scale and there is a lot of grey area. But again, I really have no intention of making this about any one toy, but the situation at large where it seems that more toys are being made now with the designer/art toy market (and mentality) in mind. Some of these are definitely earned, and the work, creativity, and thought to execute warrant it and are expressions of true artists. But we've seen plenty (just head on over to the fugly thread, if you can bear it) that are far from that; bandwagon jumpers, uncreative, un-thought out sculpts, mashups, [miss]homages, and mishaps. At the end of the day I am happy that new artists are still able to come to the scene, and I hope this continues. I think the demand on the factories is high though, but thankfully being alleviated with some production taking place outside of Japan now. If I am able to support artists I like, and the manufacturers and traditional industry behind them, I am more than happy to continue to so, within the limits of my power [see: wallet].
On the subject of non-Japanese production I got my first toys that were pulled in the US and I have to say the quality was excellent. looking forward to seeing more and hopefully for US artists this could be a more cost effective option.
Those of you who are making and producing; do you think about the bottom line consumer cost when designing/ sculpting? Like omitting features and complexity or reducing scale in order to make it more affordable for us bottom feeders.
Andy, I've been very clear that I am so fond of that lemon because I plan on eating it. ;p One rambling statement that I left in Notepad when I posted yesterday: I think there are many different reasons why someone decides to make a toy in the first place, and the object ultimately means very different things to those people. So, when it comes to pricing them, I think there are just as many internal factors that lead to selecting the price. That said, if anyone is pricing their toy higher than a dinner at Red Lobster, they're asking too much.
I said I'd be back, and I am! Luckily I have a jumping off point. This! It's hard NOT to compare a new artist to a reputable one who's been making toys for quite some time. It just naturally does, and will happen. So when going to say a Con, and there's a load of stuff I want to pick up with varying price points, I have a few common parameters: Sculpt (amount of detail and/or joints/pieces) Size of Sculpt (amount of plastic used) Color of Plastic (Marbled? Clear? GID? Glitter?) Paint (Is it painted? How much paint? Is it painted well?) Manufacturing origin (US? JP? China?) I think those terms alone, you can land on a ballpark price range on how much you'd be willing to spend on any toy, in comparison to other things you already collect. With wiggle room for the various artists you really like and would spend extra on. "Normally I'd pay $1XX for a figure this big, so $XXX seems reasonable/too expensive." So when someone comes out charging $2XX - 3XX for their first blank run of a toy, I definitely wince a little. (no particular example in reference). Agreed on this too. I think there are many newcomers who see probably see making toys as a new revenue stream first, and a creative outlet second, with a half-baked idea for a toy. Where most of these well-established artists have the creative focus at the front, and it's less about making money. And sometimes there's just a happy medium where the artist is doing what they love, and they're not losing money after every release.
Just checked the Pachi Kingu insta to have a look at this 3 headed kaiju and notice they nicked my photo of bendy pachi Gigan from Flickr. I wonder if I can have a 44k yen toy as compensation?
The ability to tell a Kilaak from a Seatopian doesn't mean that someone has achieved some hyper-evolved mental state that would prevent them from flipping a toy on eBay.
I was just talking about this with my friend. If this were sneakers, I’d argue the resellers know more than someone who’s not buying to flip.
The price I consider fair now for most things is absurd. If anyone gets tattooed regularly it is the same problem now. I think it’s totally fine to charge whatever you want but at the end of the day it just shrinks your fan base so quickly. If you create fake hype with high prices you get a a huge bump in interest then everyone flips the first few releases and then no one cares anymore. It shoots you in foot really unless you just want to sell to the same 10 rich guys over and over that works too. I think Kaiju Tan is the best example of how it just doesn’t work forever.
An interesting topic and, in my mind, it really boils down to a very simple algorithm: something is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it. That doesn't exonerate, or absolve of guilt, the disingenuous who profiteer off the gullible or those intoxicate by hype but it does push the responsibility back to the consumer. If it is priced at a level that is deemed to be high and it sells, you could argue the maker/artist/speculator got it right; however, equally, if it remains unsold, they obviously misjudged both demand and the market. As EBIII's post, I found their mention of tattoos interesting. Personally, I view a tattoo as something completely different. A toy, in fact all consumer good, are transient and can be sold, gifted or thrown away, where as a tattoo is permanent (ignoring laser removal). I would imagine EBIII is commenting more on the marketplace in which tattoos artist operate and perhaps there has been a similar increase in base price; however, to my mind, a tattoo is one purchase I would view as not price sensitive (aka I would value artist over cost). I would add that this is purely a thought experiment because I am a blank canvas but were I to commit to ink of skin, price would be my last consideration, certainly not a deciding factor. With toys, price is a factor but if I love it, and can afford it, price is a factor but 'love' overrides price point. I would also add that there are popular artists work which I feel would be at home on the fugly thread, ticking two or more of the criteria to be welcomed into that fold; however, I know they are in demand and sell out. Thus, and with the majority of art, taste and aesthetic sensibility is subjective. I am sure I have piece on my shelf that other collectors wouldn't want in their trash, let alone their cases; thus, I am no different than anyone else. So, I return to my original statement, something is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it. Furthermore, and answering @ultrakaiju original post, if the amount of people who are willing to pay for it exceeds demand, perhaps you've over estimated demand vs supply. However, the caveat to this is also: if it is really about the art and the need to express ones self, perhaps looking at this commercially is irrelevant in the first place; should someone who 'needs' to create and is passionate about what they do set out a business plan first and foremost? I would argue that those who are successful work on the premise that 'money is a bi product of doing something they love' (perhaps even need to do).
