Discussion in 'Whatever' started by patrickvaz, Apr 1, 2017.
That's the one. I figured I got some sweet L'Amour glyos at a good price, but I guess not.
People who withdraw auctions/agree-to sales/etc., just because they - either later or during - think they didn't realise a 'full' price is such BS. The market spoke, like it or not. Yes, people have gotten some very rare bargains perhaps, but full power and tip of the hat to them for having the skills and dedication to hunt them out. If you feel hurt because you didn't rake in $$$$ you think you should have for a toy, that is just life, you should not have agreed to it up front. Worst behaviour with this is typically - as they know they could have ebay repercussions - sellers will delay and delay, until a certain period of time has passed, in which you have no recourse. Fuck the refund, I just want what I paid for goshdarnit. Sorry, still smarting over a particular 'miss' nearly a year ago (and that was just one of many) so I can relate.
Kaijumonster/Oltrelomabababa (or however it's fucking spelt) is notorious for doing this on several occassions... I don't know how a guy who treats toy sales like that manages to get the exclusives and collabs he does for his online shop.
I think he had a special relationship with some of the makers he cultivated - sort of like how when Angel Abby first came on to the scene - which he parleyed into special/exclusive access to toys. This then extended into his own special releases, again, not unlike AA. Where it stands now I couldn't say.
Hmmm I mean yeah that's how anybody organises that kind of arrangement.. I guess I should have worded things more carefully? What I was getting at is why would these makers still co-operate with him when he is a blatant flipper/eBay price inflater... I mean sure I already have ideas why. It's no secret that some makers probably like having an outsider pump up their secondary market value.
Kaijumonster just comes off as a total opportunist.. and honestly I'm jealous he has the ability to get Target Earth exclusives!
Some don't seem to care, and that's about it. Considering how many of the recent Ilu Ilu/Uzumark convention releases have wound up on YJA or Manda, and the fact that it happens every time he's at a show, he must see some of the same faces turning up each time. Not that different from knowing a "retailer" has a loose grasp of the word and still hooking him up.
Huge props to makers who do their best to weed out flippers and keep things accessible to fans after they build up hype, but unless a maker says it outright, I don't expect it.
Looks like quent decided to bite the eBay fees
I wish the world was as black and white as a JPK custom...
I won't defend Martjin's reselling, but I will say at least he has never hid his practices. I could tell you about the times I've met him over the years, or about the many times he has helped me acquire a toy I wanted, or even given me free toys, that doesn't justify his practice, but as you mention, it gives you an idea of the relationships you build with people over the years, and that the pendulum swings both ways.
I will pose these questions for the sake of discussion... Why support Nag? Everyone knows he was a flipper king. Among many worse things. Why support Longneck, he has many overpriced toys in Cosmo Knight. Do you really care if Martjin flipped a Tkom toy? Don't worry, you will have your chance next month to score 1 of 40 toys at a price of 500 dollars.
Here is the real issue, a standard size toy costs 30 dollars to pull. Is a 2000% mark up or more, justifiable. Is a factory paint job worth 500 dollars or more? Who is really responsible for the decay of this hobby and the crazy resale prices, is it the flippers, or the makers who do everything they can to keep their prices peaked? You know these guys, why not shoot them an email, ask them to do an open order run through medicom at a reasonable price, they won't have to spend their time painting. Ask them to do a large blank run. It's possible, I've done it many times to deflect high prices and make toys available. See what their reaction is. I'm sure you'll get a response along the lines of "that's not how it works,"
Then come back here and you can tell me who deserves the real FU call out.
To your point, I've seen prices double for the same sculpt with similar paint detail and people still eat it up while fans who have been around for years have told me in confidence they are now priced out.
It is a complex question and isn't so cut and dry in a lot of cases. If all flipping was somehow magically impossible, then that means you will NEVER have a chance with a ton of makers. To your point, I own 3 tkom pieces and none of them I got from him, but I did get one from Martjin. I'd rather have it than nothing so I'm happy.
...ooor just stop sucking hype dick and cozying up to obvious pieces of shit just because throwing morals out the window might MAAYYYBEEE get you a RARE!!1! dolly and simply support the 95% of Japanese makers out there keeping their prices perfectly reasonable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Why put yourself through the pain, for a piece of plastic? Fuck it
Joe I can't help but find a lot of interesting things to discuss in your post.
First Martjin has always done business like this and has always been approachable and flexible when contacted. That said I have always viewed him as a lazy version of Viciousfun because if you are gonna do that just cut out Ebay and the fees push a store on line and make money that way. I feel like people would frown on him less if he went that route. I personally do not care what he does his business not mine. Insert Kermit sipping tea meme.
We shouldn't support any maker that puts greed above the scene. Nag is a great example but to be fair I feel like if you aren't willing to put in the work to innovate and if you are going to charge ridiculous prices for your stuff and change your product from a fun thing like a toy to a new form of currency that's your choice and you have to deal with the fact that you will create a monster and also at some point your number will be up.
The current market mark up situation is ridiculous. When I started producing toys again I promised myself I would make things that were cost effective for the consumer. My toys all come with bonuses from giclee prints to other goodies. I honestly feel that the ceiling for cost versus Profit has been stretched pretty thin and people are putting there hands a little too deep in the cookie Jar. Whats funny is I feel like its more new companies then anything else popping up and expecting $$$ for there new whatever knock off of someone else. If you came here to make money you are in the wrong field. If you came here to make toys found and audience and eventually made money I applaud you, Even if I don't think I should pay $250 for a skateboard deck.
He does have an online store, though it’s currently empty: kaijumonster.bigcartel.com
I like feisty Joe! He's way more fun than tow-the-line Joe!
Fuck Kaijumonster! Fuck Angel Abby! Fuck NagNagNag! Fuck Longneck! Fuck Tkom!
(I got no idea who the last two are but am happy to get into the spirit of things!)
this is true and I thought of that after I typed this up but I still feel like the Ebay sales aren't necessary just put it on your site and sell it for whatever hype price you wanted on ebay like at least then it feels legitimate kind of... also to be fair if you want me to take your store seriously as a retailer own your domain and store and not use a big cartel. Its fine for the makers to do it because the are doing random drops and not keeping a crazy inventory but resell business is more legitimate with an actual web store.
That is a good point I’ve heard from many collectors getting priced out now. I like to look at issues from every angle and this issue reminds me that people have to live. For some makers this is it, the only job they have. Some are married and are having kids, not to forget that they might not be in Japan or China so having to pay for their toys getting shipped is also another amount to deal with.
Everything essential to live in this world is climbing in expense, more so all the stuff we don’t need. Think it makes sense that some makers have to raise their prices. And I can’t blame them considering the new crappy crap crap that comes out is even more expensive than what the original makers would charge.
It’s a bummer but if your getting priced out then maybe cut back? Don’t buy so many other toys? Don’t have children? Take a bike to work? Buy a Casio instead of a Rolex? A Fiesta instead of a Ferrari?
Not aimed at @kid_miracleman just an observation.
This hobby is fantastic if you are looking for things to hate. You have flippers, artists pushing bullshit prices, select flippers/dodgy fans getting a pass from artists (because money talks) and if you're really lucky some of your fellow collectors may fuck you over or sperg out because after all...they are grown men collecting toys! Somethings up with them obviously! It's a perfect tetralogy to continually simultaneously despise. No quarter!
This aside I don't think there's a waking moment where 80% of my mind's estate isn't thinking of vinyl toys. Fucking love the things I do!
I agree and disagree. Of course a price increase is somewhat inevitable, and warranted to a certain degree, but I don’t think to the point that you start pushing out your audience. Obviously life itself is expensive, but that could be remedied by supply meeting demand. Highly coveted artists could easily pump out more releases, satiate more collectors, keep a modest, affordable price, and everyone’s happy. That’s not always what happens though, ‘cause as Joe mentioned that idea “isn’t how it works.” Some artists are seemingly more interested in keeping the hype train rolling, with very limited seating, on an expensive track. A handful of artists I’ve personally been priced out of now sell one figure, that used to be in line with what’s generally considered affordable, for the price of two to three figures I get from artists I still collect.
Cutting back is subjective per person, based on their own spending habits, and whether or not it’s healthy. Not buying so many other toys is egregious in my opinion, ‘cause collectors shouldn’t be shoehorned into what I can/can’t collect because an artist decided to inflate their prices, but that’s also at the behest of individual collectors, which is why I simply gave those artists up. It’s one thing to willingly not collect certain artists/sculpts to afford the ones you do want, it’s another to get pushed out of one ‘cause you don’t want to stop collecting anyone. Kind of weird to justify price hikes for artists having kids, which I’m all for, but to then suggest collectors not have kids so they can give monies to support someone else’s. I could’ve easily misinterpreted that, though. And I’d like to think if you’re rockin’ Rolex and Ferrari’s you probably wouldn’t have an issue keeping up on just about any maker.
All of the above probably doesn’t even make a whole lot of sense, as it hardly even does when I read it back to myself. But thems my “thoughts” and I always enjoy the discussion.
Sure some artists price their work high, but it's their work and they can set the value at whichever amount they please.. and you're right even that can put a bad taste in your mouth, Hirota is a prime example of going beyond pricing a bit high, he is absolutely chasing the cash in this current 90s comic book phase of the sofubi market. Sure sure sure, he has his own factory, his family to support, I'm sure he is crying himself to sleep after shipping out hundreds of $250 skateboards.
My issue is when opportunists buy toys and build relationships with makers only to have making a profit as their goal. That's one thing, but also to cancel eBay auctions to get a higher price that people had bidded on and won fairly is just a dog move. Classic Kaijumonster move that I've heard has happened to a few board members here.
What is up with all of this justification of flipping/buying at aftermarket prices? Since when was the Skullbrain community so quick to defend this kind of shit..
I only mentioned the kids because there’s too many mouths to feed in the world. And some people definitely shouldn’t be having kids. You need a license to drive, maybe you should need a license to have children too. Well for garbage people.
Hit the nail on the head. Have definitely heard of some newer collectors cozying up to makers just to get blanks to trade or sell, from more than one solid collector.
@IronPaw That, I am wholeheartedly in agreement with! And I’ve also heard of/seen messages of collectors from all different timeframes tryin’ to play nice with artists for some swag, only to trade flip it a week later.
@badteethcomics What’s the difference between Martjin getting artist support, and Shig getting gallery support? Shig’s toys are $850+ retail and he’s known for shitty practices, flipping, and hype beasting his own toys. Why is he still so praised, worked with and coveted? What’s his get out of jail free card? I don’t think it’s so much that it’s justification, as it is a harsh reality, and many collectors and artists, depending on who they are or what circles they run in, get swept under the rug. And this is coming from someone that got hit with the Martjin eBay special, which is somewhere in the TE thread, I think. I just stopped supporting him, but others will continue to. Just like some have stopped supporting Hirota/Shig, but others still continue to. It’s all pick and choose in my opinion.
His get out of jail free card is that he does shows in Australia
I’m on the fence if I’m being referenced or not. I see the kids thing and family thing, I don’t know it feels like it, I’ll toss my two cents out....
The thing is as anyone who makes art, if it’s your full time job it’s , that your full time job. And you should approach it as so. You should make a living, get raises, grow into other positions etc, grow. This is for toy makers, graphic designers, photographers, sculptors etc. Just because your chosen field is art doesn’t mean now your forced to live like a monk.
Hirota, his history in this field is just insane. Why should he not be on the same level as KAWS. He’s heading there though. His quality is top notch, he is involved in every aspect of production.
So at a certain point what’s art and what’s toy? The medium is toy, but it’s for sure art. Why doesn’t he deserve to grow as an artist with no boundaries of where it can go. Who knows what mental phase he’s in and where he wants to take it. This is him right now, maybe he’ll get interested and make minis. Who knows. But it’s not fair because it’s no longer in your cost to trash him or others like him. I can’t afford a Ferrari but it’s still an amazing car. I’m not gonna talk shit about the people at Ferrari just because it doesn’t fit my means. That’s more selfish motives than stepping back and looking at what I’m talking about.
Sales for artist are such a weird topic, feels like taboo subject. Of all professions artist are often shamed for talking about making money or a living. I can’t understand why for the life of me. We don’t do this for people who work for others, yet we’ll tear down someone who did it on their own with their own artwork. And then set boundaries for what’s ok and what’s not for them.
As a maker, I do my best to make it all. Large runs, micro runs, big toys, small toys, high price, low price. It’s hard to justify where to set your prices. So I do my best to make the best I can, total package so what you buy is worth it. I treat my customers the best I can like I would want to be treated. I try new sales methods, show events online sales.... It’s impossible to please everyone, and with growth it gets more polarizing, and that makes me more pulled back from discussions. If you hate me, then no matter what your gonna find something to tear me apart about. If you like me than some one will say your blowing smoke. I can just images how this must be for artist like Hirota who is on another level.
I've heard that as well. Or some collectors all of a sudden will start to collect a line they never cared about at all. That is a weird one to me... especially when damn near crying for their wants and such... You have been in this game during these releases you now long for, and they weren't necessarily readily available... but if you did the attempt during the release the chances were pretty good you would either get it at retail, or be able to trade for it or at a slight mark up.
It's sometimes hard to judge if the actions of a lot of this new wave of collectors is actually worse than some of the vets in the game.
I have went the completist route on one toy that i loved from the jump... but other than that I don't see the real need to chase every single version of some sculpts. Some of these new age collectors, make sure they have they have their hand in literally every lottery across the board.
Maybe it's some arrogance on my part? I just don't see how you can like every single thing that is getting pushed out. The only reason I see this happening is because they will just use it as bait if it's not something they are after. I am like the worse one to come at asking if I want to do a trade. I only enter, go after something if I want it. I have issues with letting things go, if I end up deciding too, its damn near next to always at what I paid for it. case and point. at the DV guest artist shows, there was a MVH x Artist collab at pretty much all shows. Ring of Fire I was called pretty late and I think there was 2 Krod's left. Krod is not my fav MVh piece by any means, I think the original release is pretty hard to beat unless it was done again with flesh poured instead of the clear *chuckles*... anyways, I grabbed it still and loved it for the inside/outside paint (very similar to sorbet boss from Summer of Slime) but down the line, I was able to get one of the pieces I was eyeing as one of my favorites from that show at retail, and I released my pick back in to the wild as well, at retail. I thoroughly believe in Toy Karma.
The good part with that Hirota spike... is you were able to tell who stuck around. Some dudes started straight dumping their collections to move onto the next hot shit. I think most have to sit down and be brutally honest with themselves why they do this. Some are in it for the likes and the "instafame" between a highly middle age men dominant scene. While others you see it's true passion as it's damn near a daily experience, where a toy that might mean nothing to you "because ebay says its worth nothing" means the world to them. I'm blabbing now. I just find it weird when a new collector loves every and anything that a hype collector puts out.
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