No offense, but I don't think most people outside of this community would really get any toy you showed them, Show them a Blobpus or Mutant Chaos and ask them if they get it? Maybe I'm wrong, I'd be curious to find out.
Well, I actually have quite a few kaiju toys on my desk at work (mostly Popy/B-Club reissues of classic Marusan/Bullmark molds). They get them...I think mostly because they're sorta cute, sorta kitschy...but clearly recognizable as monster toys for children. There's no pretense of them being anything more than that. If they saw a Blobpus (a standard-size one anyway), they'd probably think it was just a slightly weirder version of the other guys floating around. Of course, I wouldn't tell them the price! I don't think they'd get fight figures...but then again, I also have HeMan guys on my desk too. I think a good toy stands on its own merits, and even if someone isn't "part of the community", they should still be able to recognize it for what it is.
It's more than outright irony, mocking something doesn't equal irony. And again it's really more of an appreciation of the object w/o considering it's context. Substance not meaning. Despite what was meant at one time I appreciate it on a design level. I hate the Nazi's and Communism. Nazi Germany, the USSR and China commited mass genocide. I've had relatives lives ravaged in Europe by Germany and the USSR. I love, LOVE, the design work of much of their propaganda w/o considering their crimes against humanity. I also can chuckle a bit when I see some of the stuff and it's serious meaning but ridiculous delivery. It's similar to that, if that helps a bit more?
Well, I don't consider myself a racist. You can say I am ignorant, but not racist. I like all three of these toys. For different reasons for sure. I can see why people could be sensitive towards this or something else but my question would be... What is exactly the problem? Japanese or Americans making characters based on different races and cultures? Can the same cultures make this characters? When is that line crossed? Is it OK for Americans to create Japanese characters? Or Japanese American ones? I don't get it. There's tons, thousands of this cases. In cartoons, art, movies, commercial ads, video games and yes, toys. You care to look for all of them? When is it that they bother you? Waiting said, we've seen many ethnies caricaturized , I don't think each case is racism. In fact I think it's the least of them. Now, to the question of why are these features are being used, I think, again, they have different intentions. Zollmen has Robin Mad boy, and also has Bobongo... may be following the same line? Controversy may be? Gorilla Ju making a homage to King Kong movie? Probably. LamourS already explained where his coming from. And the other question is why people buy them? For me, is not racism. I can not speak for other people, but I love the Ape and it's sculpt, the colours, the vintage look, the super heavy vinyl, the size, the joints, the fierce expresion. Bobongo yes, he is some kind of tribesman, and yes, that is why I like him. Does that make me racist? Not for me, but If you think it does... May be I'm a racist because I like Turkish food?
I guess so. For Bobongo and Gorilla Ju, I see emulating an established racist caricature to the point where it's even *more* overboard in order to mock it as being ironic. But whatever. The intent is up for interpretation I guess.
I agree completely with blooddrinker and axolotl. Sanjeev- Can you please explain, exactly, the fault you find with the three toys? Trying to see things from your side... I mean- if Bobongo was made in Africa and carved in wood, or made of bronze, would it be racist? Would this be a racist piece of art?
been dropping in and out of this thread a bit. I don't think it's about proving one's impression of a toy to be "wrong" (that'll go nowhere fast), but I can see why some people like these types of designs and why some my find it to be in poor taste. Even if the sculpture above was done by someone who wasn't African, I don't think it would be fair to compare this to say Gorilla Ju's Omake or the Zollmen figure. It might be safe to say that the piece above was done out of a respect and even understanding of African art and culture, and maybe even sculpting techniques--at least it seems to be. the others were probably not coming from the same place--or at least it didn't strike me that way. I don't know if people who come from the implied cultures would find these toys flattering. I WOULDN'T KNOW. but I doubt it. that's not to say that the makers are racist. that's a heavy word. insensitive? ignorant? careless? I might believe that about the japanese-based toy makers behind the zollmen and gorilla pieces, but I honestly wouldn't know, and even if they were all those things, I don't think it was deliberate. that's just how it seems to me. so yeah...art...subjectivity. great arguments from both sides. I'm going to go play with my toys. they are getting jealous of SkullBrain.
Got mine today and just got it out of the box. Great job, Joel and Greg! This is a great toy! It fits in any collection. Another masterpiece. Thank you.
Is it being used as an example of true antique African art, or a modern take, or crap for tourists? Something seems really off with that sculpture. Might just be the pieces I have are older or from a different region but that does not look right. Was it made in the late 1930s to 1950s? It seems to reflect racial stereotypes in comparison to the pieces I'm familiar with. Those tend to involve more noble scenes: a Warrior locked in combat with a lion (and being eaten alive) has none of the elements that seem "off" in that Nigerian sculpture in the pic. Think it might be catering to Western stereotypes, whats its provenance? Lamour's Sarumon doesn't even look like its intended to depict a person of African descent but rather more like a red scaled lizard done up like the Voodoo guy in an old James Bond movie carrying a Jivaroan style shrunken head which would usually be from Ecuador or Peruvian regions.
wow Sanjeev... strike a nerve? if you think Bobongo, Gorilla Ju or Joel's Sarumon is racist, how come you didn't tee off on the NagNagNag, Nazi Boy or the Cord Viper Zavelle? these are toys, not political statements.
And IMO, these are toys, and therefore must be viewed primarily in the context of toys. Not to promote any perceived idea, propaganda or agenda. This reminds of the controversial "back masking" issue in the recording industry---there was more focus on the 'demons' supposedly hidden in each song, rather than the actual song itself. I guess reading too much into the artist's creations may take us somewhere else, rather than appreciating the beauty of the aesthetics applied on the design and work itself.
Don't kid yourself. These things are political statements, they are propaganda, they are art, they are racist, but the one thing they most certainly are not are toys, i.e. objects to be played with by children.
He's right. I'm only into these to make everyone bend to my evil agenda of racism. We all are. We should just come out about it. I'm sick of all those "savage" people getting eaten by gorilla's and it's something I just can't stand. I started Gorilla Ju secretly to get us all to attempt to take down the "cartoon savsages getting eaten by gorilla" government so that the goirlla's can eat jungle dwellers w/o discrimination. I'm just tired of this and it won't stand. We must unite! Phase 1 can NOT be stopped or stalled! In all seriousness I don't think they're anything you just mentioned. But ok, whatever keeps you up at night, I'll be having fun with my toys that I play with. I can't believe this fucking board sometimes. Yawn, I'm done.
Nah, just a mad slow work week. Honestly, I noticed that Zollmen Bobongo maybe a week or two ago and meant to say something...just never got around to it. Well, I'm pretty sure most people know my opinion on the NagNagNag toy. Horrendous. 99.9% marketing, .1% intrinsic value as a "toy". But...I'm not sure how it would be racist. Maybe I missed a snippet of the nine-thousand page discussion about nothing. I have no idea what a Nazi Boy or a Cord Viper Zavelle is. I really like a few toys that are discussed on skullbrain (kaiju). I really can't stand a bunch (most everything else). Most of the time, I just sorta blow through a bunch of pics and ignore stuff that doesn't look like a giant monster or yokai. You're kidding, right? Anyway, getting back to the discussion, I think Vombie and Krudler touched upon it. It's about provenance and intent. THIS isn't racist? Hahaha... It's a cute-monsterized version of a tar-baby mixed with the typical "savage native islander" stereotype. Jet black skin, big lips, necklace of skulls. Like...are you kidding? This isn't a statue or sculpture that is made FROM the cultures it's supposedly depicting, or even out of any sort of respect for those cultures. It's completely ignorant of both the heritages of the societies it lampoons, AND the long history of bigotry in the country it's marketing the product to. Actually, I take that last part back. It's certainly NOT ignorant of long-established racist stereotypes. It relies on them. It's obviously marketed towards Westerners, and it's designed to poke and prod their subconscious minds around race. But, hey, if people want to continue making excuses, by all means...just try an argument style other than "nuh uh" and try explaining to me why this is a good toy. That would be a good start.
All I am trying to say is that anyone who creates something and puts it out there for others to consume is doing so with certain ideas in their head about what the object means to them and about how they would like the consumers to perceive it. Whether or not that object is appreciated in the way it was intended often leads to misunderstanding and wild speculation. Personally, I do not think that this version of the Sarumon was intended to be racist, yet that is the way it has been perceived by some. However, believing that any of this “neo-kaiju” stuff are toys is beyond me. They are the same as Franklin Mint limited edition collector plates. It’s just more hip to say you collect “toys” that only 10 “children” in the world can “play” with. I think these kinds of discussions about “toys” are way more interesting than the typical “+1 that’s great” posts. Btw, I sleep just fine at night.
my kid plays with these kinds of "toys" every day , she makes up their own little worlds and relationships and everything not everyone here vacuum seals their toys in detolfs the minute they get them , i personally enjoy "playing" with them
I buy some for my daughter now that some of the market is dropping to "regular" toy prices. I've collected toys since I was a kid, I still have a massive collection. Star Wars toys are worse, they're "made" for kids yet marketed to adults and on a gigantic level. Here's what I see is being said though, and I can't blame anyone: Anyone who collects "neo-kaiju" is an over privileged upper class hippster and doesn't really understand toys or kaiju and there's no difference between this shit and KR junk and now it's "racist" so you guys are even bigger assholes. That's how some of this is coming off. Again, I don't see any of these as being racist. Racial, maybe, touching on subjects, yeah, giving homage to the raw design of the past, totally, made to insult and stereotype an ethnic group whether directly or indirectly....no. I find those Obama shirts with "bling" on them more racist than these.
Hey, I have a 2HB, and I play the shit outta that thing. Fucking love it. But it's an "adult collectible" more so than a "toy". I know kids who spend their allowances on Star Wars guys and Transformers. THOSE are more "toy" than these other things we collect. I don't know any kid trying to score the latest blah blah blah exclusive 1 of 10 colorway of whatever designer vinyl...even though they may be able to appreciate them as real toys once they have 'em in hand. I don't understand. How are Star Wars toys marketed to adults? You're projecting again. Sorry you feel bad. I buy neo kaiju all the time. I wallow in the privilege I have to spend hundreds of dollars on toys every month. But no one has called anyone here racist or an asshole. In fact, YOU are trying to tell ME that the jiggaboo toy above isn't racist. And the only counter-arguments I've heard to the historic examples I've mentioned amount to little more than "nuh uh". Okay. Maybe I should go up to my black friends and say "unga-bunga" and see what they say... So they're "racial" but not "racist"? Haha...okay. Well, there are a LOT of toys of characters that have an implied race to them. I suppose that makes them all "racial" then, right? But I guess if some of those "racial" toys just happen to depict that race as a long-established stereotype that has historically dehumanized members of that race into savages or buffoons...well, I guess that's just too bad then. Oh well.
skullbrain should have a new subcategory section called: Racist Toys Zollmen, Bemon, NagNagNag, Ghost Cave, Cord Viper etc.
You should see my anatomically correct life size version. I only sleep with that one when I've been drinking too much
Dude, I'm not even getting dragged into some sort of internet slap-fight now. Up until now it's just been a discussion of the toy, racist vs. not. I'll just give snotty answers though and sit back and not actually address the subject in a straight forward and honest way from now on. Whatever though, I don't feel bad for anything I do here, I have no reason too. Fuck it, it's racist. I hope buying them kills a bunch of whales and forests too somehow just to offend more people.
