raising animals - kids shooting kids

Discussion in 'Whatever' started by pickleloaf, Feb 14, 2008.

  1. redhanded

    redhanded Side Dealer

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    Its fucking sad, and only enables the crazies more so when its headline news.

    Hate to over simplify it but usually I blame the parents when this shit happens.
     
  2. Roger

    Roger Super Deformed

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    Okay, then, drop the knowledge on us. Point us to some statistics comparing the US with Yemen or other countries in the Middle East or wherever you want.
    Wrong on all three counts, but if we can just generalize and make assumptions about people based on one conversation, I'm going to say that you can't form lasting relationships with people, you watch The Price Is Right on a daily basis, and you think ketchup should be considered a vegetable.
     
  3. andy

    andy Mini Boss

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    All we ever see and hear from supporters of gun ownership are words, words, words. And still the mass murders continue. Over and over and over.

    I find it funny that "conservatives" and other supporters of private gun ownership (who love accusing "liberals" of having points of view driven by intellectual idealism), fall back on intellectual arguments and circular logic (if the good guys don't have guns, the bad guys will have more, so the good guys need to stock up...) whenever the issue of gun control comes up (usually after yet another mass murder occurs).

    Facts are facts. The USA is the world's murder capital, with hand guns and assault weapons leading the way.

    Enough words and excuses. It's time to grow up America.

    1) Institute national health insurance
    2) Ban ALL private firearms (sure - recall' em all, if you ask me!)
    3) Join the 21st century. Seriously, look around!
     
  4. Collin Shots

    Collin Shots Side Dealer

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    When I first opened this post I still thought it was going to be on the topic of hardcore bands.

    I thought it might say Raising Animals - Kids Shooting Kids was such a good album.
    Sounds like some of the stuff people listen too and discuss on here.
     
  5. khanate

    khanate Side Dealer

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    Well, I don't watch Fox news networks, and CNN is totally biased, even though these news programs would support my points on the gun problem in the USA. I watch a lot of foreign news programs and read a good amount of non-biased publications, and some websites like HRW among many others. None of these sources have any problems showing the absolute horrors that are happening in every corner of the world, including their own so I don't buy the claim that these things happen and don't get reported on. It's just that it doesn't dominate the news for weeks like it does in the US.

    If you're really interested then do some research on your own, as there are plenty of studies done on gun related violence in this country compared to others. Take Canada for example - just as many gun owners but only a fraction (under 50 per year) of murders committed with firearms. There are very few places on Earth where you can buy a handgun off a kid in your school like you can in certain parts of the USA.

    When you make statements about Russia not even being partially responsible for guns in the middle east, and your defense of the situation in the USA regarding the frequency of random public shootings compared to other countries, it makes you look like you're not paying attention to what is going on in the world. I'm not generalizing and making assumptions (the Bush comment was a joke), but the info is out there for anybody that feels like finding it.
     
  6. Parka

    Parka S7 Royalty

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    We did after an incident in Scotland. You had to register your gun if you used it for working purposes (game keeping). Other than that, they were illegal and you had to hand them in.

    Using the constitution really weirds me out, as it was relevent when it was drawn up, now, not so much.
     
  7. donnierobot

    donnierobot Comment King

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    this week alone
    a man was beaten so badly for asking some kids to stop pissing in his garden he needed like 120 stitches to his face,
    three under 17's were commited for murder (one extra commited for filming it on her phone)
    a girl died from a happy slapping incident
    a kid was shot walking down the street by strangers
    the uk is becoming a scary place beer is now cheaper than bottled water

    not as many guns as you but we are getting there
     
  8. andy

    andy Mini Boss

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    That reminds of me of traveling in Russia in the good old days of Yeltsin (early 90's). Vodka was around the same price as bottled water. Downed a bottle or two with some other travelers and a Lonely Planet writer.
     
  9. LamourSupreme

    LamourSupreme Mini Boss

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    collective disfunction
     
  10. yiminy

    yiminy Toy Prince

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    I think the terrible tragedy at NIU, like many similar ones, was the result of an individual's long-standing mental illness. This man evidently had a history of hurting himself and others over many years and he was reportedly not being adequately treated recently.

    While it is tempting to blame society, guns, drugs, the media, etc., events like this happen in all times and places. Any so-called statistics supposedly proving "reasons" should be viewed with extreme skepticism.
     
  11. andy

    andy Mini Boss

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    I read in the paper today that there have been 5 school shootings in the last week. Stats can be fudged, but that one is pretty scary...
     
  12. yiminy

    yiminy Toy Prince

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    A number of shootings, (murders, suicides, whatever) may be more or less accurate based on completeness of reporting, time interval studied, population, demographics and many other factors. Even the most accurate numbers, however, do not indicate causality.
     
  13. Nicky G

    Nicky G Toy Prince

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    Maybe as a handgun owner I'm a little biased, but some of the anti-gun rantings in this thread strike me as being off-base. Most guns that are used by gangs, insane kids, etc. are purchased illegally. End of story. Making something illegal does not stop it, just look at the war on drugs. And call me nuts, but something strikes me as "off" about living in a country where only the State and its actors can be armed.

    Gun ownership in Canada is high -- remember the movie Bowling for Columbine? Gun ownership does not directly equate to gun crimes. There is something else afoot in American society. Maybe the breakdown of families, good child-rearing skills, a horribly broken education system, broken healthcare system, etc.? ANd I don't mean "family" in the one mom one dad two kids kind of way, but I mean families where children spend quality time with parents, love is obvious, children are raised to be responsible, etc.

    Last point. Look at just how many of these mass murders are tied to people who were recently pulled off of psychiatric medications. It's a HUGE percentage of cases. Coincidence? I doubt it. If you've ever known anybody who was abruptly taken off of their meds (or took themself off their meds) you know that it does REALLY messed up things to their minds. They turn into DIFFERENT people, and very unstable. As a culture we TREMEDOUSLY over-prescribe head-meds, usually to avoid having to deal with deeper-rooted problems. These meds can cause more problems than they solve, and again, being taken off of them abruptly can be very, very distruptive to a person's psyche. This can't be ovelooked when asking why thsi happens here so regularly.
     
  14. ---NT---

    ---NT--- Super Deformed

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    But I believe HANDgun ownership is low. Most crimes are committed with handguns, not hunting rifles.
    I can't think of a single reason for a civilian to own a handgun - handguns are meant to be used against people.
    However, you're correct that making ownership illegal wouldn't solve any of our problems - not unless you could assure the confiscation of ALL handguns. Which would be impossible. However, if this COULD be done I would be all for it. Removing all handguns wouldn't eliminate these problems, but it would drastically reduce them.
     
  15. Nicky G

    Nicky G Toy Prince

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    So there's a mystical property of handguns that leads to them somehow manipulating their owners into committing acts of violence? Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe it just so happens that the gun black market tends to involve handguns primarily, people who are looking to commit these kinds of acts don't buy their guns legitimately, so they buy what's available. Also, there are definitely many crimes committed with shotguns, rifles, knives, baseball bats, fists, broken bottles, etc. I don't think they tend to be as publicized.
     
  16. Parka

    Parka S7 Royalty

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    If someone was going to go nuts, i'd rather they went nuts where they couldn't get hold of guns.
     
  17. hillsy11

    hillsy11 Post Pimp

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    "Maybe it just so happens..."? So, you're saying it's all just coincidence? You're fooling yourself, then. It's not much of a black market, when countless gun shops DON'T practice responsible sales, and you just walk in and buy. And the penalty they get is minimal. You just don't have to go very far to get an "illegitimate" handgun.
     
  18. Stone

    Stone Side Dealer

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    mmmm. I own 9 handguns,love going to tha range and shooting at least once a week,I also carry one (legally) every time I step out of the house.
    People's right to bear arms will never be taken away in the USA,could you imagine what would happen if the government ever tried this! Removing guns from society will not stop people from killing people..Bad people that want to do bad thing's are going to do them...This is the way it is and alway's will be..I know it sucks but it's been this way since the start of time..
     
  19. Nicky G

    Nicky G Toy Prince

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    These particular kinds of crimes are SO rare though, they really are. We live in a country of almost 300 MILLION people (USA I'm talking about.) A handful of school shootings a year does not an epidemic make -- the mass media has a way of accentuating certain stories that, guess what - draw viewers. Do you know how many people die in car accidents every year in the USA? Die of overdosing on over the counter medicines? I could go on and on. This is a terrible, yet REALLY RARE kind of event, and thinking that getting rid of SOME people having guns (of course not the authorities, they should always be armed!) is going to make a marked difference is just not based in reality. I've seen many statistics that show violent gun crimes are LOWER in areas where more people own guns. Go look it up, don't be prejudiced, do the research. Reality does not correlate with the mass media view of reality.

    But 'nuff said, I will continue to snuggle with my 9mm at night. Heheh I jest, I jest. But the good thing about this debate is, well, if it's only people who don't own guns who want all the guns taken away, it's not very likely to happen now, is it? ;)

    Just as an aside, you might want to ask some cops if they feel confiscating all handguns from lawful gun owners is a good idea. Something tells me they will laugh at the idea...
     
  20. Parka

    Parka S7 Royalty

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    How so?

    Why?
     
  21. hillsy11

    hillsy11 Post Pimp

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    You miss my point. the "black market" isn't as "black" as you think. I'm talking about gun shops following the law. Simple as that. If they don't, crack down. HARD. But that isn't being done. I'm a realist...as much as I would like to see your handguns taken away, it'll never happen, so the least that can be done are laws being enforced.
     
  22. ---NT---

    ---NT--- Super Deformed

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    Hand guns are easier to conceal/transport than a rifle. They're easier to use in close-range situations (against humans) than a rifle. I would assume they generally carry more rounds than a rifle, but I don't know if that's true. All of these reasons are why they're used more often to commit crimes. You don't see people walking into 7-11 with a 30ought to hold the place up - they do it with a hand gun. I'm not saying that handguns are the CAUSE of violence/crime - but that it's EASIER to use a handgun than a rifle to commit a crime.
    Again, handguns were created to be used against people. Whereas a rifle has the potential to serve a purpose by putting food on your plate or protecting a herd from predators. If we could magically destroy every handgun in the world we'd live in a slightly better place. I'd rather have a knife pulled on me than a gun (I've had both, and a gun is WAY scarier).
    I don't begrudge responsible people owning guns. I think it'd be fun to go to a shooting range. But I think giving up shooting ranges in exchange for no one having handguns is a very small price to pay. Take up darts instead.
     
  23. Monkey

    Monkey Line of Credit

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    The problem is I would like to give up NOTHING. I love freedom and liberty. I like them ALL and I except ALL of their risks. I want guns, drugs, terrorists, and even the possibility that Jesus don't love me! I want it all, including the possiblity that I might fail, be wrong, hurt myself, etc.

    The problems of society aren't necessarily solved by taking away choices. There is no need to throw babies out with bath water in the name of safety, and security, IMO. I want to be unsafe and insecure as long as I can make choices about my own situation. Autonomy is king. But that is just MY feelings.
     
  24. Roger

    Roger Super Deformed

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    It probably seems like a very small price to pay when it's someone other than you paying it.
     
  25. backtrack

    backtrack S7 Royalty

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    You both have incredibly valid points.
    I think it's insane to think that the US would ever give up the right to bear arms, and in all honesty, if they did, I'd be very very dubious of the intentions behind that, regardless of my view on guns, hand or otherwise.

    At the end of the day, the US is caught up in a blame culture. That is undeniable, it is a litigious society. I order coffee from you, I spill it on me, I sue you for not telling me it's hot. On the other hand, if it's too cold, I will sue you for false advertisement.
    It is a lose/lose situation.
    At some point, someone over there needs to realise this.
    The whole kids going to school and shooting other kids and all the excuses/reasons/rationalisations for that are completely ignoring the root cause. Which as far as I am aware/concerned, is refusal to accept responsibility for ones actions, just look at the credit crisis.
    "well the banks shouldn't have lent me the money"
    No, they shouldn't have!
    But then you shouldn't have accepted it.
    The government shouldn't allow guns on the street, maybe... But you should take care of your kids and maybe they wouldn't crack and kill each other.
    Stop shifting blame. And accept the fallout.

    Ultimately there are a million and one sides to this debate, it is not cut and dry.
    Unlike abortion... :razz:
     

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