Pearl Harbor?
I know your saying present, but people think very very highly of FDR, certainly much better than they think of Bush and his administration.

Kaiwi, I don't think anyone underestimates bin Laden, I certainly don't underestimate the power of terrorist cells, they are extremely effective. I and from what I have read, most of the other people on this thread, am/are not saying that the US Gov, or maybe the Bush Administration, which ever you prefer, orchestrated the attacks, only that they stood back and let it happen. Much like Pearl Harbor allowed the US to enter into WW2, this allowed the US to get involved in Middle East events.

I don't think it's that crazy, or hard to get your head around.

Sorry- those questions wernt suspose to be provacative although from re-reading what I put I can see how they may have been-

When I said as a person who believes the official story it was a generalisation- and I did mean only somone who agreed with the main points.

Also sorry if I do not remember every post you have made in this thread- it has been draging on for month now, so sorry if your reapeating yourself.

I listened to the interview- it was interesting but very chaotic, obviously a lot of emotion from all parts. I agree with almost everything Jesse said- and his arguments were met with the usual type of responses, about how many people it would take ect and repeating a lot of the official story which it now know to be false- the phone calls from on board the planes for example.

What people dont understand is the same thing I mentioned eariler- for the conspiracy thories to be true it would take a lot of very unlikly things to have happened, but for the official story to have happened it would have taken scientific impossibilities to have happened.

Also- one of the guys said-

"The jet engine detached from the plane and went down the elevator shaft to melted the steel in the basement."

Thats some funny shit, he is obviusly a bit dumb to believe that. I mean did he just speak without realising what words were coming out of his mouth or is that actually what he believes?

"Pearl Harbor?
I know your saying present, but people think very very highly of FDR, certainly much better than they think of Bush and his administration."

It's interesting that you bring this up, as there are more parallels than people think, and I don't mean the whole "attacked on our own soil" propaganda spiel. The parallels I draw are those regarding intelligence. Again, like 9/11, I think the US had the intelligence info for an attack, but it didn't get to the right people or to people smart enough to deem it important. I don't believe that FDR purposely ignored it and allowed it to happen in order to make it easier for us to get involved in WWII. We may have to agree to disagree, yet again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_debate

All I'm saying is that it could happen.

There are plenty of battles where the idea that if we throw men at this front, we will lose 200 and be able to take this spot which will save 2000, lets do it.
Much like what happened with Hiroshima, the bombings were an attempt to end the war sooner, obviously at a great cost, but that was the reasoning behind it.
The only difference is that these people were citizens.
You know, the same citizens that the US Gov/Bush Admin has built those detention centres for and investigate, ban from traveling, arrest and detain etc etc....
Yeah, everything that they do is in "our" best interests... for our safety, for our childrens safety...

The interesting thing about the pearl harbor comparision is it actually goes a lot deeper-

check out about PNAC

Just read this shit- you will be amazed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac#.22Ne ... _Harbor.22

Also scroll down and look at the people from this think tank that later formed the bush administration-

Cheney

Wolferwitz

Bolton

Scooter 'presidential pardon' libby

Rumsfeld

it goes on and on....

Again more convienent coincidence, or a detailed outline of their plan for 9/11 and what to do next.

They admit that the to re-assurt America as the dominent world superpower would be a long winded process with a catasphoic and catalysing event like a new pearl harbor?

They have recoginised the importance of this event- is it too much of a big leap to believe that they could orchastrate it to forfil their goals?

Another interesting piece coincidence was the Ben Afflic movie pearl harbor that came out months before 911- a pretty big budget, bias piece of propaganda,

Apparently around this time aswell Cheney was going around giving speeches about pearl harbor, endorsing the movie and even giving out books on the subject.

More coincidence? or a man trying to stir partitoism and prepare people for waht was about to come?

Ill try and find the article and accounts of Dick Cheneys obcession with Pearl Harbor that I am referring to although I cannot remember where I read them....

I vote for coincidence. If it really was their plan for 9/11, then I think they would have found a way to pin the blame on Iraqi terrorists.

Besides, the whole idea behind the PNAC is to improve America's standing in the world by flexing its economic and military muscle. Death toll aside, the US was brutally battered, economically, and it made our military and government look like fools. That would seem counter to their goals.

I must agree with you on this point-

When people argue about 9/11 being done so as the U.S could go into Iraq- I mean no one would plan that the Americans would be as stupid to invade a completly seperate country not involved in the 911 attacks ( Even though in actual fact they were)

If your goal was to invade Iraq- you make sure the hijackers work for the republican guard or somthing.

I agree again it would appear that the oppisite of PNAC objectives have been realised- but that is not intentional really, I mean when the invasion of Iraq first has though up I dont think anyone realised it was gonna end up like how it is now.

Also beside from being involved in PNAC Dick Cheney was also on the board of directors for Halliburton- who have profitted no end from the iraq war.

I would suggest that PNAC's main objects were not just for the benifit of America- but also to make these type of corporations a fuck load of money- in which they have been 110% sucessful.

It's interesting what conversation turns up sometimes. My father and I were on a pretty long road trip the other day and I brought up the 9/11 conspiracy talk that's been resurfacing on the news lately. He told me that he knew one of the architects that worked on the original towers named Herb Belton.

He said Mr. Belton told him that the collapse of the towers was not a surprise, that they weren't really designed to withstand the punishment they took during the initial crashes. He said he even did some sketches to show him why the towers fell the way they did.

I would have liked to contact him about it, but unfortunately Mr. Belton is now deceased.

That right there makes me wonder... j/k

Thats interesting- So he was saying that the buildings were designed to collapse inwards? I suspose that makes sense, if they fell over it would cause 10 times as much damage.

Still- there is no way they would have come down at that speed or with the molten steel.

Would have liked to ask him about building 7 aswell, although I have a feeling that was built later, so he may not have worked on that one.

Samba, when you post these things, I have to wonder, what are your qualifications to make a statement like that? Do you have a background in engineering or architecture or demolitions? A degree in physics or chemistry?

No- but I have common sense and have read the official report.

All you need to know is jet fuel cant no way get hot enough to melt steel, especially as the steel was found 1000's of feet away from where the fire was, and that-

The official report explains the collapses through the pancake theory meaning that, the weight from one floor got too much and collapsed onto the floor below and so on and so on, accelerating and pancaking down.

But- look with your own eyes, there is no resistance from any of the floors, once the collapse starts it falls at free fall speed- like all the support collems gave way at the exact same time.

Finally I dont have a degree in engineering, physics or achitecture but 300 of these guys do.

www.ae911truth.org

Again- all I say is: Read the official report and them see if thats what your own eyes see. Thats all it comes down too.

I just saw this whole thing was renewed, and I don't have any desire to get involved, but in general it makes me crack up whenever I see people reference wiki as a 'look, look at what this says..."
Its the least accurate way to ever get info.

I agree with you to some extent- but think in this case your just shooting the messenger.

Wether you go to wikipeida, NIST or test it for yourself, the melting point of steel is still gonna be the same isnt it?

Samba, you are obsessed with the molten steel.
Are there any other elements of it all that raise an eyebrow?

I know that the steel is a big deal, but for me personally, it,s really only another small element in a mess of other things.

Yeah the molten steel is a big deal to me- but Im only making a fuss over it, becaus IMO it is the smoking gun, as it is scientifically impossible ect...

But there are literally hundruds of other contridictions, unexplained points and 'conveinent coincidenced.

I could go on for ages but here are just a few-

WTC 7

The phone calls from the planes that never happened. (Ted and Barbara Olsen)

the debris from flight 93 being spread over 8 miles ( was shot down, not crashed)

One of the hijackers passports being found at the world trade center but none of either the black boxes found.

WTC being announced that if collapsed before it actually did

Dick Cheney lying about what time he was at the white house

George bush saying he had seen the first plane hit before he went into the school

Traces of explosives found in the WTC dust (Thermate)

PNAC

The buildings not collapsing ( them vaporising)

Firemen being on the floor when the plane crashed and saying the fire was able to be put out, but then not being released to the public.

Norad being not able to do anything because of being distracted by 'conveinent' wargames exercises.

The black box filght path of the plane that hit the pentagon- if you seen the manover it did- many experienced pilots saying they it is impossible with the g-forces created.

The size of the hole in the pentagon and no mark on the lawn.

The fact that the FBI have 80 video tapes of the plane hitting but have only released 1 that doesnt really show anything.

The susposed flight path of the plane would have to hit this radio transmission ariel at the hight the plane was suspose to have been at but it didnt.

No wreckage being found at the pentagon and them saying the titanium alloy engins just discentrigated

( Im not saying a plane didnt hit the pentagon, just pointing out all the strange facts.)

You have just gotta get to the pointy with all this stuff and wonder what is going on? can there be this much unxplained stuff and the official story be true?

Again all you have to do is read the offical report to see all of the lies and impossibilities they want you to believe.

Im happy to stop talking about this now until there are further developments or clarify or ellaborate on any of the points mentioned. But I wont mention the molten steel again.

No, keep going. I'm down w samba.

Thermite = molten steel, no?

There are a lot of interesting questions and theories floating around. As far as the planes hitting the towers and collapsing them and that being odd? I'm not sure..I've never seen a plane hit a building anywhere in my life especially with such force so I can't really say whether or not the way collapsed was odd.

I think, just from photos, the pentagon plane crash was the odd one. The images that were released seemed strange to me. If that plane had to get so low to do that..It's weird that you didn't get multiple people calling on their cell phones and/or taking pictures of it. I just found the way the fact that there was no debris..the size of the crash and the angle of it. I have more questions about that versus the two towers.

However..it could have been a complete fluke. We've all seen strange things happen.

the pentagon is the most obvious fuckup on the coverup front. thayd have had a better story if they said a hijacker stole a military plane, shot a bunker buster in and flew back home overseas, id believe that more than a fucking plane hit the thing.

if it was the impact of the planes or the "force" then they would have come down sooner and perhaps tipped the buildings, no?


one thing that really makes me think the gov't had an idea it was going to happen is this:

george bush sitting in this elementary school being told the towers were hit. i think most of us have seen this video. not even the expression on his face changes. and he doesnt think to get up and go figure out what the hell is happening? were talking here about the commander in chief, the president. THE man. right? this is the behavior we expect from a man of this position? to sit and think about the few words hes just heard? im not sure but i think even i would go "hey time to put the upside down book down, say,"excuse me kiddies i have some business that needs attending to, you know i am a powerful man, its been great, maybe i can come back again soon!"" get the fuck up and find out what the hell a plane monitored by the FAA is doing hitting an Iconic building in my country?! and thats only if he wasnt told it was an attack. if its an attack MOVE YOUR ASS.

maybe its just me, maybe i cant pass it of as rude to leave the kids. but come on WTF? im just sayin that its suspicious as hell, and in context with all the other really suspicious and strange going ons around the whole deal, it kindof adds up.

Regarding the Pentagon, I recall seeing some piece about a reporter that was there when it happened. He had pictures of the debris and possibly the gash left in the lawn from where eyewitnesses said it hit. If the government would go through the trouble of crashing planes into the WTC, why use a missile on the Pentagon? While there are likely going to be some inaccuracies in any official version of events, I think there are even more illogical and contradictory ideas on the opposing side.

Personally, and I'm not saying that it's the case with anyone here, I think that there is some underlying racism in people that think it's preposterous that some Arab guys could hijack planes and fly them well enough to crash into buildings. But that's just my thoughts on the whole thing.

The other interesting thing about Bush in the school is that there was a blatent cover up there aswell- untill 2005 the story was, he was in the school, he got told the second plane hit- then IMMEDIATELY got up and left. It was only when the tape surfaced of him sitting there for 9 mins that he got caught out.

Im not saying this proves anything more than he is a liar and covers his own ass for his absolutly pathetic response to this incident, but its worth mentioning, and edivence that the govenment is prepared to lie and cover up on some level.

The Pentagon is definatly a strange one, again for me the strangest part is written in the official story when they say that the Titanium Alloy jet engines discentrigated- I mean how stupid do they think we are? do you know the type of force it would take to make titanium alloy engines disappear? your talking about aliens with poarticle accelerater rays, not just the fact that it crashed into the side of a building. From this I can only assume the engines were never there to begin with, meaning that maybe it was a different type of plane than the one the said hit it, or that it was a missile or somthing.

All the best lies are there in the official report....

Also- anyone thats interested in the Pentagon stuff should check this site-

www.pilotsfor911truth.org

these guys are all professional pilots and focus mainly on the strange facts and impossibilities of the pentagon attacks. I havent really looked into this stuff much but they seem to promote the theory that there was a plane and a missile involved.

The balckbox data from the plane that hit the pentagon actually puts the height 100 feet above the pentagon, and also they interview eye witnesses which proves that the flight path of the plane was different than that of the official story.

I think their conclusion is that the plane flew low over head for everyone to see it but actually flew over the pentagon and landed ( there is an airstrip a short distance behind it apperently) just as the plane flew low over head a missile was fired, creating the hole and the illusion that the aircraft crashed.

Again, not sure how much of this I believe, or if its just a conveinent theory that encorporates all of the conflicting edivence to make it believable- but check out the site and the movies on there and judge for your self- I know they interview cops and people who were there on the day which is pretty interesting and raises a lot of questions.

Iv watched a lot of the interviws. As well and they really conflict with the official story. From descriptions of military planes, sounds of missiles, and stuff that should have been clipped down as samba hjas mentioned like telephone poles and highway light poles.

This is a pretty big subject, and waaay over my head, but I will say this, the one thing that bothered me about the Pentagon 'plane crash' explanation is that the pictures available from the hole made by the plane, you can clearly see office furniture in the offices on the outer ring of the Pentagon that have no smoke or fire damage, yet they are sitting right next to the hole that was made in the wall. Surely if it was jet fuel, it would have incinerated combustable objects like that a good ways in from the impact area? Especially if you go by the damage and the resulting fire at the WTC. It would suggest to me an explosion more so than an explosion then followed by a towering inferno.

Just my input there.