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 comics? 
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Yeah, of course I get what you are saying, but for example to also get 'reading' copies of these books right now:



(yes this is a 'live' auction, but not for anything toy-related, and no one is bidding so I am giving it a pass. But if anyone is offended, feel free to let me know.)

I am just saying, that is less than a buck a book, which is about the norm that I would expect. And these are even bagged and boarded and in VG condition. And WoS is just an example in this case. Nothing from the 70s onward is really an investment as such. I don't know what experiences you have had in the past with some pretty junked comics, but even if you beat them and rough 'em up, you can always have a duplicate like this to enjoy. :P But anyways, to each their own of course. Diff'rent strokes and all, and there is plenty of room for that in this and all our hobbies. I am glad you grabbed that issue, I remember it gave me some good memories too, and happy to see folks enjoy them.

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Last edited by ultrakaiju on Wed May 25, 2016 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.



Wed May 25, 2016 4:32 am
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I have some other stuff iv read like The Maxx. Which was a super surreal and awesome story in general.

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Than the newer comic that came out last year from Marvel called Weird World is fantastic. It has allot of barbarian elements in it and is surprisingly super bloody which i wasn't really expecting from a Marvel comic.

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Wed May 25, 2016 4:47 am
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ultrakaiju wrote:
so many people 'collect' comics for value (which there is almost none of) and never spend any time reading the stories inside for which they were made.

This is one of the reasons i like trade paperbacks so much. They are far easier to keep in good condition, without all that bags & boards crap.
Saying that, i did bag and board all my old underground comics (like the Freak Bros.) a while ago, so i suppose i'm a ruddy hypocrite.

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Wed May 25, 2016 4:57 am
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The Moog wrote:
ultrakaiju wrote:
so many people 'collect' comics for value (which there is almost none of) and never spend any time reading the stories inside for which they were made.

This is one of the reasons i like trade paperbacks so much. They are far easier to keep in good condition, without all that bags & boards crap.
Saying that, i did bag and board all my old underground comics (like the Freak Bros.) a while ago, so i suppose i'm a ruddy hypocrite.


No just smart especially again if things get hard to come by latter on. And if you read them and enjoyed them and want to preserve them I see nothing wrong with that.


Wed May 25, 2016 4:59 am
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Headhunter wrote:
Image

This was my starting point ! I'v been collectiing Spidey's since ASM #250, Web 1# came the month after. I have'nt miss a beat since, very few of those comics are in bags (ASM 300 signed by McFarlane being one of them :mrgreen:) .


Wed May 25, 2016 5:16 am
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^^^ Nice! :P


Wed May 25, 2016 5:18 am
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Just to clarify, I am not saying at all there is anything wrong with bagging and boarding, or using long boxes, or whatever happens to be your particular fancy. But it is the permanent sealing of things which has become so de rigueur in the last couple of years that I see no point in. It was one thing when this was confined to the area of sports/collectible cards from which it developed. Those were at least two-dimensional objects, which you could essentially still enjoy fully even once entombed. But encasing a comic book in carbonite forever, just to add some supposed 'value' to it - which often as not costs as much as said valuation - all for the purpose of building this tiered collectible market with some arbitrary scale, that is what I am having a go at.

Image

How can someone claim to appreciate the actual comic book, without having ever seen the art and story that is between the covers? That is the comic. But anyway, I grew up with this stuff before it became like that, so my mindset is going to be different.

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Wed May 25, 2016 5:26 am
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ultrakaiju wrote:
How can someone claim to appreciate the actual comic book, without having ever seen the art and story that is between the covers? That is the comic. But anyway, I grew up with this stuff before it became like that, so my mindset is going to be different.


Well the origin of this kind of collecting can be contributed right around to the end of the 80s and going into the 90s. Thats when the pristine mind set really started to emerge with people in general. Even with action figures around the 80s most ppl were playing with stuff and opening them not caring about value. However around the 90s again is when people realized all the comics and toys they have been reading and playing with could have been worth more if they had just not gone through the regular wear and tear of the items in general. I think some collectors beat themselves up so bad they vowed never do do it again. And why many buy more than just one issue of a comic or why you see people buy a multiple of one toy.

Ill never be able to get an actual physical issue 1 of the walking dead because the price is so outrageous on the collectors market. It will have to be through a hard copy collection or something now. And people pay so much money for these issues i can see why some will never open or read them. Personally ill open most comics just to read them but not if its a freaking 2,000 dollar comic LOL.


Wed May 25, 2016 6:47 am
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Sure, maybe, but it was the same speculative mentality in the 90s which completely crashed the market, and why Marvel - yes the big M itself - went bankrupt. And this is also why those comics aren't worth much of anything. People (everybody and anybody) were buying up stuff in an unsustainable fashion, hoping they could make a mint. Look at X-men #1; nothing is every going to reach those numbers again. And don't even get me started on action figures. :P

Look, I know what you are saying, and it is the same in the toy world or anything else. There is always going to be the rarez commodities that silly people with ridiculous time on their hands and/or money will drop thousands on. (we should know that here if anywhere) But who cares? Buy what you like and enjoy it. For every Nag out there, there are five thousand Bandai figures you could buy and enjoy just as much. And it is the same in comics. That's all I am saying. Valuing something because it is in demand is for the birds, appreciate something's intrinsic value for the reason it was created.

If you want WD #1, just get a reprint or the PB collection; the content is the same and it won't bankrupt you. I can't afford original Bullmarks right now, but there is plenty of excellent M1/B-Club repro stuff just as good. The point is there is more than enough out there to offer you affordable alternatives.

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Wed May 25, 2016 7:02 am
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ultrakaiju wrote:
Sure, maybe, but it was the same speculative mentality in the 90s which completely crashed the market, and why Marvel - yes the big M itself - went bankrupt. And this is also why those comics aren't worth much of anything.

Look, I know what you are saying, and it is the same in the toy world or anything else. There is always going to be the rarez commodities that silly people with ridiculous time on their hands and/or money will drop thousands on. (we should know that here if anywhere) But who cares? Buy what you like and enjoy it. For every Nag out there, there are five thousand Bandai figures you could buy and enjoy just as much. And it is the same in comics. That's all I am saying. Valuing something because it is in demand is for the birds, appreciate something's intrinsic value for the reason it was created.

If you want WD #1, just get a reprint or the PB collection; the content is the same and it won't bankrupt you. I can't afford original Bullmarks right now, but there is plenty of excellent M1/B-Club repro stuff just as good. The point is there is more than enough out there to offer you affordable alternatives.


Well i agree with you and im not against the idea. Iv always thought the idea of collecting something but never fully appreciating what its meant for is rather silly anyways. But your going to have to convince allot of other people otherwise.

But i think people like me really don't care about the history of Marvels bankruptcy and the hard times comics had trying to sell in the 90s. People are still willing to pay good money for things if you have it. Its just a matter of finding the right buyers. But i mean if you really want to talk about something that plummeted hard how about those Beenie Babies?! XD


Wed May 25, 2016 7:10 am
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Marvel going bankrupt allowed Avi Arad to squander and sell of marvel properties thus turding up numerous properties. Xmen/f4/namor/hulk
so... id say its pretty noteworthy.
shout out holofoil covers though.


Wed May 25, 2016 8:33 am
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3wing wrote:
Marvel going bankrupt allowed Avi Arad to squander and sell of marvel properties thus turding up numerous properties. Xmen/f4/namor/hulk
so... id say its pretty noteworthy.
shout out holofoil covers though.


Some of those 2099 holofoil covers were freaking awesome.


Wed May 25, 2016 8:37 am
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Headhunter wrote:
3wing wrote:
Marvel going bankrupt allowed Avi Arad to squander and sell of marvel properties thus turding up numerous properties. Xmen/f4/namor/hulk
so... id say its pretty noteworthy.
shout out holofoil covers though.


Some of those 2099 holofoil covers were freaking awesome.

true some of them looked spectacular. Though, looking back it really screamed how shallow the products got.


Wed May 25, 2016 8:56 am
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Attention Montreal's Brainers, FBDM is raging on all weekend http://www.fbdm-montreal.ca/en/
I had the immense pleasure of meeting Mr Chester Brown - a favorite of mine since the early 90'
It was super nice to chat with him about his work and good old Joe Matt !



Pic spotted on Librairie Drawn and Quarterly's Ig :D


Fri May 27, 2016 3:43 pm
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That's awesome man! Very cool indeed. Was it you who had posted that autographed copy here before (I can't remember if it was Louis Riel or which)? Anyways, very stoked for you to have met him at the event. I have heard he is actually quite a good guy in person, but haven't had the pleasure myself (despite his repeat of events associated wtih D&Q).

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Sat May 28, 2016 9:22 am
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So, there is quite a lot going on in the world of 'traditional' superhero comics these days. What with Cap being a Nazi, [another completely unfathomable and unnecessary] Civil War II: Electric Boogaloo, and yet another not-a-reboot reboot going on at DC to retcon all their poor planning (once again), a lot of changes* are in works.

* But not really though, because this is comics.

Anyhow, one of the most interesting developments for me of late is that DC has officially announced that Watchmen is now part of their regular comic canon. With them bringing this into the fold, effectively making it part of the same regular universe(s) as their lead superhero titles, it does seem like quite a shift. However you feel about Watchmen, it was of a particular place and time, and I am not sure exactly how this move will ultimately benefit them. [Surely they aren't expecting to to sell significantly more copies at this point, are they?] And furthermore, how this entire thing plays out with in terms of Moore's reaction - not that he has any say on the matter - further exemplifies the strangeness of this move. Having the legacy Vertigo titles alongside (but separate) from DC to me makes sense.

But, moving along, it has sparked some interesting conversations which I have been following and thought I might share here for anyone who is interested. Might be an interesting read for folks, if they care. Taken from io9 in response to an article by James Whitbrook, and credited to the corresponding commenters. The article mainly circles around Geoff Johns' plans for Rebirth, and this one discussion that arose from that. (see the article for full comments and context).

I found the topics quite interesting, and more importantly, what it says about the state of comics today.

thekeith82 wrote:
I do not think Geoff Johns is a hack. I think he has written some decent comics over the years, and when it comes to some straightforward action adventure stuff, he’s a good, if slightly workmanlike writer.

But he’s got a problem. And his problem is Watchmen.

Despite the fact he spun a good chunk of his Green Lantern run off a six page Alan Moore story, he clearly dislikes the overall effect Watchmen has had on the comic industry, and opines for a more innocent time when comics were fun and optimistic. In his mind, I think, Watchmen ruined everything.

So if you look at his career, at least from Infinite Crisis (the prelude to which was a fairly naked riff on Watchmen starring Blue Beetle), he keeps doing the same thing: putting characters in grim and gritty situations where he can push them to their limit and ultimately show that they’re better than that. The biggest part of his career has basically been a non stop rebuttal to Watchmen.

And this is the logical conclusion. He’s actually written in Doctor Manhattan as the specific individual who is ruining the DC universe. And... That’s not inherently a dreadful idea. If Grant Morrison was writing it (although when he used a Doctor Manhattan analogue in Final Crisis and Multiversity he handled it very differently) I might even be impressed at the sheer audaciousness of it. It’s... Kinda fucking meta, when you get down to it.

But here’s the big problems. Firstly, it’s been done. It’s been done SO hard. Alan Moore himself rebutted the influence of Watchmen, beginning with Supreme and continuing through his other reconstructionist superhero stuff like Tom Strong. Grant Morrison has done it in virtually everything he’s written at DC since his JLA run. Endless callbacks to the sunny, imaginative days when Jack Kirby was the King. Including Final Crisis, which is more or less ultimately about Superman facing down the living personification of grim dark dark grimness. Of course, that being a Grant Morrison comic, it was studiously ignored because Geoff Johns wanted to reboot the universe himself. And because apparently that’s just the fate of everything Grant Morrison writes these days.

Which leads us to our second major problem. Watchmen... Doesn’t really have that much direct influence on comic book storytelling anymore, outside the fact that Johns wants to rebut it constantly. Now... I can kinda get that Johns probably doesn’t see this the same way as we do. He’s high up at DC, and he’s probably had to spend years listening to accountants going “why does this 30 year old book outsell everything else we release? We need more Watchmen”. I can see how that would piss a guy off. But he’s the last major person in comics that will just not move on! This is a comic that exists purely because Geoff Johns hates how much he’s incapable of getting his own work out from under the shadow of Watchmen. And he’s had so many opportunities to actually close the deal and give us these more hopeful, optimistic comics that he keeps leading up to... Only for him to fall back on more misery and violence just so he can show us again how good and pure these characters are to overcome it all.

It’s... Kinda fucking sad, really. And he’s leaving comics now, to work on the movies, where someone is actually desperately needed to rebut Zack “if I’d made Batman Begins I’d have had him raped in prison” Snyder, who clearly is doing everything to the movies that Johns believes Watchmen is doing to comics. Except it actually is doing it to the movies because Snyder thinks Watchmen is about as good as comics get for ALL the wrong reasons. What Johns is leaving DC comics to... Jesus, I can at least hope a writer who can think in different directions to him takes on the actual event, whenever it arrives. I can cross my fingers and pray Morrison gets it but I’m not holding my breath.

This is... It’s not good. Someone might be capable of doing something good with it, but it just feels so completely wrong.

lightninglouie wrote:
The way I see it, Watchmen is a foundational text for post-Bronze Age DC the way the Lee-Kirby era Fantastic Four and their other collaborations were for Marvel in the 1980s. For years, major creators like John Byrne and Walt Simonson obsessed over Kirby’s work, imitating it, playing off of it, always trying to come up with storylines or concepts or characters that were more audacious, more ambitious than the original source material — but never able to really escape its shadow. It would take an influx of new talent in the ‘90s and ‘00s — along with things like near-bankruptcy, the unexpected popularity of the X-Men and Spider-Man films, and the birth of Marvel Studios — to move the company beyond its nostalgia for the past. Today, there isn’t even a regular FF comic book. But for a generation of creators and fans born in the ‘70s and ‘80s, Watchmen is when DC really became DC — just as Marvel was boring old Timely Comics until Reed Richards and his friends tried to beat the Commies into space.

DC’s relationship with Watchmen (also Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, et al.) is more complicated but similar in some aspects. For decades after WWII, DC’s characters defined the mainstream public’s idea of what “superheroes” were. Not Marvel’s neurotic, introspective anti-heroes and Space Jesuses, but fun, happy, optimistic champions of wholesome American values. But with the decline in comics sales beginning in the ‘70s and the rise of the direct market, Marvel began to rapidly outpace its Distinguished Competition in terms of sales and mindshare. DC’s first reaction was to be more like Marvel, with titles like New Teen Titans and Batman and the Outsiders that were clearly aimed at fans of Marvel’s X-Men juggernaut. (And of course, Crisis on Infinite Earths, the first of many “events” designed to simplify the company’s sprawling multiverse.) But with the cult success of Alan Moore’s Swamp Thing in the mid-’80s, DC saw another way: go weird, go meta-, subvert everything that the company stood for. If kids 7-12 weren’t the core audience for comic books, why keep acting as if they were?

This approach led to some truly monumental work, like Watchmen and Miller’s Dark Knight Returns and Year One, as well as the rich corpus of Vertigo series in the ‘90s like Sandman, Preacher, and The Invisibles. It also led to a lot of precious, self-indulgent bullshit and a tendency for “grimdark” tropes that persists to this day, culminating in the Snyderpocalyptic DC movie-verse. Marvel had its share of grimdark garbage in the ‘80s and ‘90s (plus a lot of flat-out terrible comics) but it managed to get past them, because it never had the self-image problem that DC did. Its self-loathing, transcendental heroes like Peter Parker, Ben Grimm, and the Silver Surfer were assimilated pretty rapidly into the counterculture. They were never The Man — not even Captain America, who fought Richard Nixon in the Oval Office and briefly turned his back on his country. DC, on the other hand, remained haunted by cheerful, campy depictions of its characters like Adam West’s Batman and the George Reeves/Christopher Reeve Supermen. For a long time it considered darkness the cure for its uncoolness. Now it seems to be changing its mind about the prescription.

Further irony is that the movies of Watchmen and V For Vendetta have cannibalized the sales of the graphic novels. Where before potential readers might pick up a trade paperback out of curiosity, now they’re like, “Oh, wait, there’s a movie of this? I’ll just watch that instead.”

thekeith82 wrote:
Great analysis.

I think it’s important to remember that Watchmen is ultimately an OK story. It’s a fairly cliché pulp mystery plot with a twist ending that happens to be welded to some original-for-the-time worldbuilding and characters who were that bit more three dimensional than Marvel’s flawed heroes. It’s also an astonishingly good exercise in form, and it’s a superb example of how to tell a story in a way that’s unique to comics, with that amazing 9 panel grid layout and a narrative that skips back and forth through time from panel to panel. It also helps that it’s a self contained story, since it doesn’t have to worry about continuity or preserving characters for an ongoing.

But it’s something that was absolutely of a place and time. It’s a great comic, but if it hadn’t arrived after the slow build towards more mature comics that arguably began with Miller’s Daredevil, or at the point that the Direct Market was first really becoming a thing, or at that point between Donner’s Superman and Burton’s Batman where comics were angling for a major place in pop culture... It’s not important because it’s a good comic (although it is) . It’s important because it was the right comic at the right moment. It’s easy to overestimate how relevant it ever needed to remain after the horror of the 90s, by which point a lot of those major Vertigo writers of the 90s were going mainstream and starting to move comics overall in more interesting directions.

But as you say, DC just couldn’t move on. And now we have... This. And I doubt Moore will do just beyond roll his eyes and say he’s not really surprised by anything anymore. Even he stopped caring a long time ago. But poor, flailing DC are playing one of the last cards they had left that could generate any real surprise. In the long term, it’s not gonna do much good, and in five years we’re probably gonna be finding out that Rorschach has secret ninja training so he doesn’t completely embarrass himself when he inevitably meets Batman, and Nite Owl will get the ability to control birds with his mind so they’ve got any reason to justify having him around when they’ve just brought Ted Kord back from the dead.

It's all very silly.

lightninglouie wrote:
Which leads us to our second major problem. Watchmen... Doesn’t really have that much direct influence on comic book storytelling anymore

One minor rebuttal here: I would agree that Watchmen’s thematic influence on comics is just about played out. Just about everyone is sick and tired of deconstructions of superheroes as fascist or authoritrian. Stylistically is another story. Today it’d be impossible to find a major mainstream superhero comic that wasn’t influenced, however indirectly by Watchmen, as well as Miller’s Batman comics. Simply put, there are fewer words — practically no omniscient narration. And if we’re privy to the characters’ thoughts, it’s usually through limited first-person, like in a novel.

This is a huge change, and it only seems to have taken effect in the last dozen years or so. In the ‘80s, the most influential comics writer was undeniably Uncanny X-Men’s Chris Claremont. At the height of his popularity, the average issue of X-Men probably had as many words as a New Yorker short story. Watchmen changed all that by placing the emphasis on the imagery as narrative — a classic example of show, don’t tell. This has come to be known as “decompressed” comics writing — the best exemplar being something like Warren Ellis and John Cassaday’s Planetary, where there might be exchanges of dialogue here and there but most of the story is related through action scenes with no narration.

Of course, both Moore and Ellis are sophisticated writers who want you to read the images as intensely as the word balloons. (The average Watchmen script ran around 100+ pages for twenty-odd pages in print.) That’s not true of most comics scripts these days. I think the key difference is that where the comics writers of the ‘70s and ‘80s were frustrated novelists, the modern-day creators are mostly aspiring screenwriters and directors. Moore is a transitional figure in that regard, especially when you consider that his new prose novel, Jerusalem, runs around 1300 pages.

thekeith82 wrote:
I wouldn’t disagree with any of that, but I think it’s the deconstructionist, grim ‘n gritty, “realistic” storytelling elements that Johns specifically takes issue with. Stylistically I don’t think the influence of Watchmen has been as big an issue, since I think that’s the element that’s stood the test of time.

Whether a given person thinks that's a good or bad thing is up to them. Personally I find the endless, melodramatic monologues of Claremont's X-Men nigh unreadable in this day and age, but I'm slightly too young to have experienced those first time around so I don't really have any nostalgia for them.

lightninglouie wrote:
Right, and the whole “trick the superpowers into thinking aliens are invading to avert WWIII” is one of the hoariest tropes in Cold War era science fiction — it’s practically lampshaded by the scene where the “Architects of Fear” episode of Outer Limits is playing in the background. (And the “space squid” conspiracy also directly references the “Starro” storyline that kicked off both the JLA and the Silver Age of Comics back in the late ‘50s.)

The big irony is that Moore originally pitched Watchmen as an “in-universe” story with the Charlton heroes that DC had recently acquired, but Editor-In-Chief Dick Giordano made him change them into rough analogs of the Beetle, Captain Atom, The Question, et al. On some level this was to protect DC’s new IP. But I think Giordano and Moore also understood that Watchmen worked best as a one-off, that it wasn’t something that could be extended or franchised, and this hands-off policy persisted long after Moore’s acrimonious departure from DC. Partly because it was so self-contained, but also because it had become something like holy writ, a Gospel of Grimdark — though it’s not actually darker or more violent than a lot of the “alternative” comics of the ‘80s, or some of the mainstream comics of the ‘90s. Rather, there’s an understanding of the visceral nature of what violence does to the human body, at a time when the average superhero beatdown was about as bloody as a Looney Tunes fracas.

Maybe treating Watchmen as “just another superhero comic” is the best course of action for DC at this point. As you point out, there’s nothing really transcendental about it — much of the worldbuilding is stock alt-history tropes, and the nine-panel format is straight out of the Ditko playbook circa 1965. I don’t really see why the DCU needs Watchmen characters since they’ve already got the Charlton versions, but maybe they’ve come to value them as recognizable “brands,” much as they did when they mainstreamed all the Vertigo properties a few years back.

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:42 am
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^^^ When i heard about this no more than maybe 2 days ago it definitely threw me off about Captain America lol.

Image

Than im left with this stuck in my head.


But than we wouldn't get funny images like this. XD
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Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:17 am
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Went to the Maine Comic Arts Festival today and, in addition to being able to pick up issue 4 of Head Lopper from Andrew Maclean, He also did this commission sketch of Norgal and Agatha the Blue Witch for me:

Image

It was cool to see Andrew at MECAF again since that's the first place I saw him in 2013 (I think it was) and pre ordered the first issue of Head Lopper when he was self publishing it. I was immediately drawn to his art and the story has ended up being awesome as well.

Also picked up an oversized version of the first issue of the new Madballs comic and met Scarecrowoven and Gunsho who each did backup stories in the book. Also got to meet Steve Bissette, which was really cool since I'm a big fan (like everyone else) of his and Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing .

Great show overall, even though I really didn't get a chance to look around too much since my son was with me and he was in a hurry to go. Also wish I'd saved up a bit to get some drawings done by some other people too.

I'm impressed with how much this show has grown over the years. Very cool to go to a show that is just creators and not comic retailers, etc.

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Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:00 pm
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^^^ Very cool picture and story to go with it! Glad you had fun at the convention. :D


Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:56 pm
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hey guys - my comic came out in stores today:

More info here: http://studygroupcomics.com/main/secret ... tores-now/
For fans of Copra/Head Lopper/King City/Dungeon/Etc
Check it out if you feel inclined to do so.

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Post Re: comics?
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DANIEL CLOWES on WTF
Do it up . . .

http://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episode-7 ... ra-edelman

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Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:35 am
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