The use of the appropriated Native American headdress on the appropriated, formerly-Stahlhelmeted skull creates a temporally- and culturally-transcendent visual loop unifying genocidal perpetrator and victHOOOOOOOOOAAAAARRRKKKK….

Whoops… puked on my own joke… sorry…

Postmodernism? Yes, I’m all about it.
Irony? I grew up in New Jersey. Next.
Mashing of disparate visual elements/interplay of signs and symbols, and the occasional brilliance which can arise from it? Please Sir, can I have another.

However… the value we assign to signs and symbols varies in quality and quantity. Some are much easier to play with than others; some really should require more of the artist, in terms of communicable intent (when it's not readily apparent in the work). I can't stand it when artists are slippery on this point... it's fundamentally ludicrous and weak. If you wanna play with symbols that are associated with, for example, a horrific persecution/mass murder that happened not even 70 years ago (and let us Americans in this convo try to strike a small blow here against our deserved, legendary American capacity for completely forgetting/devaluing/never even learning hugely important (and recent) historical events), well, go ahead… but much like stepping to Mssrs. B-Real, Sen Dog, et al, one had best step correct.* It’s easy to toss Nazi visuals around, weightless, in your studio; put it in front of the world and my feeling is yes, be prepared to explain yourself. Hopefully intelligently. Hopefully not in sympathy with murderers.

As for Kozik’s use, I never understood the 90s-birthed vogue for using Hitler/Gacy/Ramirez/Manson faces and the like (and I was wide open to much in art at the time, being in my 20s) in a flip, unqualified Pop context. It always seemed like simple and empty provocation to me. The crimes and bad things of the world’s past are enough with me, lodged in my head from reading the details about them, that I don’t require crude visual reminders/provocations. Do the artists feel that some people do require such? Is it intended to shake that American Historical Memory Problem I mentioned above? If so, I don’t think it works that way; I think it just results in young people being further estranged from understanding the living realities and outcomes of recent history. If it’s just the artists enjoying a joke at the expense of ignorance (“Look! I put Himmler in a hot rod on this Horton Heat poster! Haw!”), well… back to Charles Krafft.

Love,
Guy On A Message Board


*Yes, Cypress Hill are pretty much awful. Thanks.

It is the same skull & yes the juxtaposition of the Native American headdress & the Nazi Skull was very much on purpose. I wanted a logo that had a loaded meaning but also had a really good graphic quality to it. The name Scumbags & Superstars to me represents the high & the low in society. But it also speaks about perception. The Native Anerican logo is deemed to be offensive but is used over & over in American culture. It is seen by certain people in different ways. Some people see it & think of genocide. Others see it & may think of a sports team or a collage. That's were the Superstars & Superstars comes into play.

And yes the skull was ripped from an old German Nazi image. It was also meant to add fuel to this already loaded image. I'm well aware that some people may see our logo & be offended. But to me those people are ignorant & aren't seeing the meaning behind the image. We aren't praising the Nazis & we aren't praising the genocide that was performed on Native Americans.

The logo was chosen because of its graphic element first & foremost. I wanted to mashup a headdress & a skull. Two images that have been used in the US for years & are very easily recognizable. When I starting looking threw images & skulls. These are the 2 the I thought work best. I'm very aware that some people(maybe some people of this board) may misunderstand the meaning...And I could give a fuck less.

intent and meaning aside, i'd say you were just too lazy to draw your own logo.

And that's going to be my last post on this topic. I've got actual things to do. I wish had the free time to go back & forth with you guys. But sadly I actually have a real life.

promise?!?

How does this not completely contradict what you just said about Krafft, unless you are a racist and Nazi?

My head hurts..

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0tQ19tAw6h0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So how much more of a fuck less could you give?

Wow, I missed the juiciest bit. As far as I'm concerned, this is not an obvious mash-up of two images that have a "loaded meaning", but a sneaky way to hide some lesser known Nazi imagery (especially since it was slightly altered). Anyway, now that we've established this is actually a Wehrmacht skull I would love to learn what the "88" part speaks about, please.


Considering how old those pieces are, one might be led to assume that it's actually Krafft that's ripping off Kozik..?!? This thread confuses the living fuck out of me.

Ugh.

88 = HH = Heil Hitler like SS = Shultz Staffel......

yeah...the 88...double ugh. and my head also hurts (from laughing @ ungawa222's post)
I love you guys.

Probably should have put that in blue/purple? I was just poking fun at what this thread was originally about.

^^ Don't worry. Not. Serious. At. All.


What I meant is that I would love to hear the "artistic" "reasoning" behind using the 88 in conjunction with Nazi imagery. And it's actually "Schutzstaffel", although I much prefer "Schultzstaffel"...

Well, it's too bad, S&S 88, that you're done posting in this thread, because the response my post spurred from you was very interesting. Man, speaking for myself, I am not trying to personally attack you or your brand- just offering my own opinion as one art-damaged toy nerd... just some food for thought.

My guess is that you'll still read this thread, so I'll go ahead and comment on your last post with no expectation of an answer. Let's start with a couple lines from the end:



So here you seem to say that the pure graphic is the point... you just wanted a skull in a headdress for the logo. Well, then why not just draw an original skull in a headdress, or engage an artist to do that?



"Work best" here seems to translate to easiest- most graphically compatible for a digital mash accomplished in under an hour.

But both of these lines are preceded by:



So which really came first, the chicken or the symbolic weight? Did it happen that you found these great, convenient graphics to use, but they both (one in particular) come pretty loaded... so you retrofit an intent/statement onto it that dovetails nicely with the brand's concept? I don't know man- smells like wanting to have it both ways, to me. And when you chase the acknowledgement above that yes, you are aware of the weight and power of these graphic elements, and yes, it was your intent to tap into that power ("adding fuel" to paraphrase you)... with this:



Well, I'm sorry, but you're well out of your depth. You're employing heavyweight symbols for a lightweight concept/commentary. And what this is all in service to, ultimately, is a clothing brand.

You want graphic power and weight for your stuff? Try designing something original that has those qualities. This board is full of inspiration in that direction, much of it from members. When in doubt, go Mishka and Put A Monster On It. Works for them!

Or..." Put a bird on it." ; )

I have this toy. The back story is, if not plausible, interesting.

Exactly what was on my mind, Ralph!

Well the appropriate bird might be one without feathers. ; )

Joking aside I think a lot of folks like Lorne, NT and Ungawa pointed out how dogmatic your arguments and rational were S&S 88. And your moniker, as someone pointed out, put you in a grave you can't dig out of.

Haha, this thread is priceless. Thanks for making me laugh while eating my lunch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIAVFbOI4-o

I've eaten handfulls of mushrooms that were less of a trip than this whole mess, normally I might be inclined to take offense to stuff like this but maaaaaan I need the laugh so popcorn me and que up the asshat

Regardless, I feel Fremdscham anytime someone tries to pull off a brand from something as tried and poor in impact and taste as murder, genocide and some contorted idea of 'high-life'.


Sometimes I am very happy I only wear tacky death metal tees.




Totally agree, the Koziks of street wear, amirite!?

Lamour Supreme is doing graphics for this guy now.