Materials: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly

Discussion in 'Whatever' started by zindabad, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. zindabad

    zindabad Comment King

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    Sometimes I browse the forum with specific questions about the plastic itself—durability, aging, interactions with cleaning agents or mixed media accessories, paint composition, and that's just off the top of my head. How come clear vinyl quality can depend on the weather? What determines whether the plastic is smooth, oily, squishy or tacky? How can storage conditions impact those qualities?

    I want to talk about this stuff, and learn, and I never know where to have those conversations. If you're in the same boat, maybe we can talk about it here (if enough people want to and this thread doesn't immediately sink into obscurity). So feel free to jump in if you have a question, want to highlight some impressive vinyl, discuss production or recount a cleaning attempt :)

    This thread was inspired by a specific question, so I'll dump it here: what's your experience been with rubber accessories? I have a few modern toys with rubber masks, and wonder about the effects on the vinyl of leaving them on all the time. Maybe the vintage heads are more suited to answering this one.
     
  2. Mr. Humphreys

    Mr. Humphreys S7 Royalty

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    Great topic!

    I recently adopted a FewMany Fox Racer from Mandarake, and he arrived sticky. @ultrakaiju (thank you Stevie!) mentioned that a clear coat might remedy the stickiness. I can't use the soft scrub method, because this custom has metallic paint. It's NOT a vintage toy, but it is a custom paint. I also tried soap, baking soda, vinegar, but these did not work :x.
    I suspect the customizer did not prep the surface properly, so that greasy stickiness developed shortly after the toy was customized. Very disappointed that this wasn't disclosed, but the toy is super cute. I'm just afraid of keeping it in a case with my other toys.

    Posted in the Customs Section, to see if painters know if a clear coat is a possible fix
    http://skullbrain.org/bb/index.php?...clear-coat-for-sticky-toys-help-please.54479/

    Here is the Fox Racer in question...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Biohazard Tinpo man says Noooooooooooooooo to vinyl stickies! :x
     
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  3. zindabad

    zindabad Comment King

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    Lovely little toy; I'm sorry he arrived that way :cry: I have a pocket Deathra custom with the same stickiness. The seller mentioned it well in advance and said a fresh clearcoat should fix things, but since the toy has been that way for some years it has a little damage and debris stuck to it. While you're figuring out the clearcoat I'd recommend keeping it as dust and hair-free as possible. Now I'll be looking for a Fox Racer too, although I imagine not much could beat that paint :)

    I really need to contact the painter who handled the Deathra to discuss a repaint, but with the pandemic I imagined now would be a bad time.
     
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  4. rattanicus

    rattanicus S7 Royalty

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    Calling all chemists! :o :lol:
     
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  5. 3wing

    3wing Addicted

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    That toy will have to be stripped and repainted. if you clear it, it’s just going to put a layer on top of an uncured layer.
     
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  6. Waterbear

    Waterbear Comment King

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    If it is a serious case of sticky a normal clear coat won't fix it. It could help for awhile but eventually the sticky will seep through. What will work is a Monstor Kolor clear coat that you can get in a spray can or for an airbrush. Unlike normal clear coats MK is basically spraying a coat of hard clear resin over your toy. I have never seen it fail. Even years later. Works on vinyl and resin and a bunch of other stuff too. Be warned though it is thicker than any other coat and it's also glossy. You can coat it with matte clear coat on top of the normal clear to stop the gloss though.
     
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  7. Mr. Humphreys

    Mr. Humphreys S7 Royalty

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    @3wing and @Waterbear thank you for the explanations! It makes sense that putting paint on top of an unstable layer will also cause it to fail (just like painting a house). Monstor Kolor clear coat also sounds fascinating, to be able to seal your toys with a clear resin! :shock::shock::shock: I wonder if this would be a remedy for saving vintage toys, with severe stickiness?! Might depreciate the "value", but if it saves the toy, I could see applying that approach to my personal collection, instead of letting it continually degrade. Alas, I don't know any paint artist who would be willing to Monstorestorationize the poor fox! I think it would be worth a try, since it isn't a rare vintage toy. I sorta like the idea of a super glossy Fox Racer too! :)

    *Thank you for your insight and experience! I love materials science! Hopefully, we can also coalesce discussion about cleaning as well! :razz:
     
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  8. Waterbear

    Waterbear Comment King

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    MK would "save" vintage vinyl but at the same time there is a reason hardcore vinyl artists use v color and that fishing lure version of v color. It doesn't really alter the vinyl at all. It bonds so perfectly that you can't FEEL the difference between painted and unpainted vinyl and it doesn't scratch off easily at all. MK on the other hand changes the feel quite a bit. It's like a very thin very hard shell. That is why people use it on helmets and skateboards and stuff. I doubt vintage collectors would want to alter the feel of a toy just to make it non-sticky. That being said it is amazing for use on other plastic and resin toys. You can paint an old vintage rubber/plastic dinosaur with shit cheap acrylic and seal it with MK to preserve it forever. Sadly most people who use MK clear coats also use MK paints which tend to be garish ugly harsh candy colored metallic colors.
     
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  9. Mr. Humphreys

    Mr. Humphreys S7 Royalty

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    @Waterbear thank you for the additional info on MK clear coats vs V color paints! While I like the idea of sealing vinyl from stickiness, and even a shiny coat, you're right on about changing the feel of a toy with a hard shell! That is great info, and something I wouldn't have thought of, since I don't paint toys. I suppose I'll have to find an acrylic box to park Mr. Fox and display him separately. It's a shame we don't have 3D touch and smell photo technology yet. It would be great to hold a toy painted with both types of paint!

    Pardon my ignorance, but are most sofubi painted with V color? Do MK color toys always have that eggshell feel? Is there a common toy or brand that is painted with MK? You've sparked my curiosity, and I'd really like to see an MK painted toy! :shock:
     
  10. hellopike

    hellopike S7 Royalty

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    most soft vinyl is painted with v-color or something similar. Monster Kolor was more of a flash in the pan, and I’m glad it’s for the most part faded away. The hard plastic clearcoat was necessary because the colors themselves didn’t adhere to the plastic, but it completely ruined the feel of the toy. The soft in soft vinyl toys is pretty important if you ask me.
     
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  11. Mr. Humphreys

    Mr. Humphreys S7 Royalty

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    ^^^Definitely! It wouldn't be sofubi without that soft feel, but I'm still curious of what a MK painted toy looks and feels like. If anyone does have a photo of a MK painted toy, I'd love to see what the colors look like!
     
  12. Bob

    Bob Toy Prince

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    Is stickyness infectious to other toys?

    I have a Gargamel Hedo that’s been tacky since I got it. Washed it very lightly once but doesn’t seem to have made much difference.

    it sits on a shelf with other toys (but not touching) but I am now a little worried that it could cause issues on the surrounding toys.

    should I move him to his own space away from the others?
     
  13. Waterbear

    Waterbear Comment King

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    Not exactly. V-color is a brand of paint not a type of paint. It is very popular with indie vinyl toy makers but factories around the world use other stuff that works exactly the same way. Most of which you probably can't get in other countries. Same kind of stuff but it's not v-color. For many years getting v-color in the US wasn't allowed and had to be done very carefully. Wouldn't call it smuggling but close enough. Now it's easy to get and there are other brands here of stuff that is basically the same like Mad Ape for example.

    Unless the toy in question is physically touching other toys there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

    Unless it's a toy based on The Blob!
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  14. JoeMan

    JoeMan Mini Boss

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    It was possible to get the look of a typical soft vinyl toy with MK. I’ve done it and could show you old releases where you wouldn’t be able to tell it was MK, I also have old releases painted with creatix using MK clear and you would never know. There is also a method of spraying white vinyl base paint and using MK on top, it holds much better. Maybe the monster Kolor play book was to paint the toy silver and then thin color over silver and then a quarter inch of clear coat, but the paints didn’t need to be used that way, a thin application of clear was sufficient to protect the paint, they also had a matte clear that had a very good effect. The issue was the curing time of the clear coat and the damage that would be inflicted to the paint before clear, just handling the toy. Not to mention the toxicity of the smell.
    It’s a matter of user, not product being the determining factor.
    Most of the issues I’ve had with paint have been a result of using a clear that doesn’t react well with vinyl, this seemed to be a common issue many American painters struggled with 10 years ago or so, when they were trying to figure out what paints were appropriate for vinyl.
     
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  15. 3wing

    3wing Addicted

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    It seems counterintuitive to have to prime vinyl.
    For the most part the art of painting Sofubi is about quick purposeful mark making. Making something beautiful with quick intention.

    Monster Color is automotive paint.
    Most of the pigment is candyied partials floating in solution. That MK clear coat is a airbrush killer. Sets up, and the brush is dead. A lot like 2 part epoxy auto clear.
    My personal opinion on MK is that it’s trash. Expensive and hard to use.

    Vcolor is vinyl lacquer paint. Chemical similar to the vinyl. You can find many alternatives better than MK.
    Though many are toxic as fuck.
     
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  16. zindabad

    zindabad Comment King

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    Love all the insight; I'm used to getting this info in DMs and then promptly forgetting about it. An old painter I used to talk to mentioned some of those highly-toxic alternatives, @3wing.

    Feel free to pick this up or leave it, but I have to put it out there. I received a toy a few weeks ago made of very soft vinyl, like chew-toy squishy. I'd think it was rubber if I hadn't been told otherwise. It shipped with no smell, and arrived from overseas smelling like meat.

    I'm not kidding; it smelled like some kind of spiced processed sausage, kind of a stronger Slim Jim smell. My (vegetarian) partner took a sniff and recoiled instantly. The smell was strong enough that I caught some holding the toy about a foot from my face.

    Anyway, so far I've tried leaving it in a bag with an open box of baking soda for a couple of weeks, which didn't do much, and washing with blue Dawn soap, which diminished the smell. Now I can't smell it unless I really try, which is good enough. I found the whole thing hilarious to be honest, but the experience leaves me with a powerful curiosity.

    My question is: how the hell does plastic come out of a shipping box smelling like meat?
     
  17. Roger

    Roger Prototype

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    A while back there were some Chinese-made bootlegs of 90s Bandai figures including Little Godzilla and Megalon. The vinyl was soft, greasy, and stinky, and I remember one person saying that they had flies embedded in their figure.
     
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  18. zindabad

    zindabad Comment King

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    If it turned out this particular maker was using Chinese vinyl I imagine it would be a small scandal :lol:
     
  19. hellscrape

    hellscrape Comment King

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    C'mon! You can't say such things and not spill! We must know who it is!
     
  20. zindabad

    zindabad Comment King

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    Good point, no sense being cagey after telling everyone about my meat smell. It's a Moon Majin.
     
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  21. JoeMan

    JoeMan Mini Boss

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    Maybe the package was just in close proximity to some meat or something else that smelled on the international flight. I really couldn’t see Longneck making anything outside of Japan.
     
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  22. Patrickg2k

    Patrickg2k Toy Prince

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    I have a ton to say about this topic and will definitely comment more about all I've learned about various paints and products over the past few years but for now, here's some thoughts on topics already brought up:

    Sticky Clear Coats - I'm actually doing some experiments on fixing this issue right now. Will post results soon. Until then, here's some reasons why it happens:
    • Clear coat thinned with an improper thinner (like using water to thin a resin based gloss varnish)
    • Clear coat applied too thick
    • Using old clear coat
    • Excessive humidity during application
    • Using the wrong clear coat for the medium in question
    Stinky Plastic (@zindabad)
    • WTF
    • "Plastic" can be made from a variety of specific materials and certain plastics can off-gas for a while after production. Small factories can't exactly be held to the same standards as a big factory that might be adhering to tight regulations. Accidents do happen, the plastic could have been contaminated or mixed incorrectly. Most Japanese sofubi factories use Kobasol and it doesn't stink like meat...it just doesn't. If anything most vinyl fumes smell fruity, not meaty. Something went very wrong with that viny OR like Joe said, it got plopped next to some rotten meat on it's way over :lol:
    @Waterbear Mentioned a "Fishing Lure" Version of VColor
    • We're talking about Mad Ape here, Gunnzo's vinyl paint brand.
    • I assume you are calling it a "fishing lure" version because the thinner they sell is a rebranded thinner from CS Coatings. However, to be clear, Mad Ape paints have nothing to do with CS Coatings paints. I believe @evom has experimented with their paints and it didn't work out so well.
    • Chika, who runs Gunnzo (and Mad Ape), personally told me that Mad Ape comes from the same factory and is identical to VColor. Literally VColor just re-jarred. With that said....I can't confirm this info since I can't easily get VColor - but that is my understanding.
     
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  23. zindabad

    zindabad Comment King

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    @Patrickg2k thanks! That was my thinking; plastisol shouldn't take on that smell by itself, and I bought this one from a trusted friend who says it didn't smell at all when he shipped. So I'm really wondering what might have happened during shipping. Perhaps that Majin was a different plastic formulation, and reacted differently to our normal kobasol in whatever conditions the box went through.

    It wouldn't be the strangest thing. I've had a toy come out of the box with cloudy residue all over one part of the vinyl, and the paint eaten through in some small spots. It was bubble-wrapped for the entire journey, and once again the seller was someone I trust who saw nothing like the wear I found.
     
  24. Smotemotem

    Smotemotem Toy Prince

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    Comparing Bandai’s Movie Monster series (and the like) to a traditional vinyl toy, how similar are the vinyls? To the eye, and to the touch, the mass produced stuff feels softer, thicker, and more matte. Are these vinyls different at a chemical level? Are they poured thicker into the molds? And is there some release agent or particular top coat that gives them the almost powdery finish? Or is all of this a matter of perception?
     
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  25. Waterbear

    Waterbear Comment King

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    Actually I know several people who use CS Coatings instead of mad ape or vcolor. It took lots of trial and error to figure out how to use it properly but they love it now. Especially since it's so much cheaper and easier to get.
     

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