No. I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do. I'm just giving my viewpoint. Whether someone agrees with me or not is up to the individual. I may be splitting hairs but she definitely did not record it. Someone else did. And as far as I know it hasn't been stated if it was her, the camera operator, or someone else who put it on the internet, or if there whole thing was done with the intention of putting it out there.
I gotcha. I even went back and edited in the "to some degree" since you seemed not as close to that stance. Either way, I respect and understand both of your opinions. That's what I love about this board- more or less civilized conversation, even on things people disagree on. Probably why this is the only board I post on with any regularity.
I'm sorry. Wtf are you talking about? Deep seated animosity toward women? I wasn't aware this thread had anything to do with women. Aside from the fact that the puppy tosser is a girl. If it was a guy, yes. Wood chipper. Why does the sex of the offender even come into play. Either way, it is just as horrible an act. And the "they're only meat" comment... Sounds like you may be the one with some deep seated animosity. I fully agree with what Cubensis said. Funny how people try to explain it away as being the same as killing animals for food. Or even the selection that goes on in dog breeding. In these examples, there is a purpose. Not done just for the pleasure of killing innocent puppies. Despite her past- is there really any excuse for this? I am sure Geoffrey Dahmer had a traumatic childhood too. Does that make what he did any less despicable?
Right on! I had thought of making a similar analogy after typing my last rant, but didn't want to go back and edit. I think this is a great point though, Melek. I would never hope violence or death on this girl, regardless of what she put those puppies through... but I'll be the first to say, she is a fucked up and malicious person. And I don't feel wrong for judging in the manner. Similarly, I don't condone the death penalty. I don't believe that it is an intrinsic right of mine to steal the life and consciousness from another being, regardless of their actions leading up to that point. Doing this is just paradoxical to the original crime. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Dahmer (or any murderer, serial killer, etc.) carries out his taboo against society, and so society takes it upon themselves to carry out the same taboo against him. Likewise, are we saying this girl may have felt angst against the world for putting her in whatever fucked up situations may have led to her current state of being... and therefore, we shouldn't judge her cruel actions aimed back at the world, or the creatures within it? And that's assuming that she's had a fucked up past. Maybe her life and situation isn't terrible. Maybe she is a privilaged girl. Just because she's living in Bosnia does not mean her life is automatically horrible. But even if it were, it's no excuse, and the sympathy card isn't working in her favor.
What this girl did is terrible - everyone agrees with that. There's disagreement about whether the reaction to what she did was so out of proportion to her act and that it's at least as troubling (i.e. de-humanizing her to the point where she becomes a disposable, inanimate object). Gender was never part of the explicit discussion but there's no question there are subsconscious reasons why people suggested putting her into a wood-chipper as opposed to all the other ways one could have responded (like a more proportionate reaction such as throwing her into the river). Others can/may disagree but to me the reaction to her acts may bespeak a callousness that's on par with those acts. And unless one is willing to acknowledge that "but for the grace of god go I," you may indeed become that person (by, for example, suggesting that we throw a girl into a wood chipper). People can and do disagree about whether, for example, each human life has equal value or whether an animal's life has value equal to that of a human. At some point any viewpoint can cross over into zealotry such that the acts carried out in the name of one's belief are worse than the so-called "problem" the group wants to address. I don't see any qualitative difference between the reaction to what this girl did (if acted upon) and the anti-abortion nut-jobs who kill doctors in the name of saving lives. (I'm not that familiar with it, but I think people criticize some PETA tactics for the same reason) Someone said that for all we know, this girl had a privileged background and there's no explanation for what she did other than the fact that she's pure evil. That might be true - but no one even raised the possibility of a backstory until Roger did after a lot of piling-on by the group had already taken place. What got my panties in a bunch (and admittedly I was having a really bad day and overreacted myself - sorry guys) is that people where dehumanizing this girl in a way that was every bit as objectional as the way she treated those puppies. All kinds of research indisputably shows that under the right circumstances, any one of us - me included - could do things as bad or worse. The discussion had the feel of "To Catch a Predator" which to me is the sickest show on TV. That show isn't about fighting crime, not in the least. It's really about parading a bunch of very sick people across our television screen for their entertainment value because it allows us for a moment to feel better about our own shitty lives. (in a nutshell, that's also what every evening newscast is about). I feel somewhat the same about this thread - it's not really about stopping animal cruelty - it's about gawking at a fucked up person, convincing oneself I could never do that (with a lot of self-congratulatory backslaps and hi-fives thrown in) while simulateously doing the very same thing by suggesting the girl be murdered in an especially de-humanizing way. As my mom used to say: "Don't worry about [the other person], worry about yourself instead."
No offense, but I think you're overanalyzing this a bit. If you look at the initial reactions, you'll see that none of the first few people posting in this thread even looked at the video in the first place, because the mere thought of "gawking" at a fucked up person throwing puppies into a river sickened them. Most of these people, myself included, obviously just needed to vent to get it out of their system instead of carrying this fucked up shit around with them all day - I don't think anyone was actually wishing for the girl to die or fantasizing about chopping her up before they went to sleep that night. And I'm not quite sure whether merrily throwing puppies into a river and talking cynical shit about the person who did it on a message board are really "the very same thing"...
[/quote] No offense, but I think you're overanalyzing this a bit. [/quote] None taken. It's possible you're correct just as it's possible that I am too. Most important is that you make up your own mind rather than go along with mob-think.
These are very good points. I completely agree that turning around and dehumanizing this girl is somewhat of a hypocritical response to her actions. Of course throwing her in a woodchipper, throwing her in a river to drown, etc, would be no more right in cause than what she had initially done. I think everybody on here was just venting rather than stating what they'd literally do. I myself said I'd have a hard time not punching her teeth out... but had I actually seen her, I certainly would not go that route. I wouldn't sit there and scream at her about how she's a fucktard either, but I would without a doubt make it clear that I thought what she did was fucked up, and try to question her about her motive and gain... and possibly suggest she needs some serious counseling. I agree on the To Catch a Predator subject as well. Of course I can't particularly side with the "Predator", as I don't think anybody on this board would agree with their motives. But to lure them out into the open and force them to act as a court jester for a national audience isn't exactly a humane way to deal with the problem either. I don't think many of us are bashing on this girl just for the entertainment of it, but simply reacting to what this girl has done to those innocent pups. Unlike To Catch a Predator, she put herself in front of the camera and did this for fun... and then broadcasted it. Nobody lured her out with a bag of fake pups sitting on a riverbank with a candid camera perched in the treetops. It's crazy that the word "inhumane" refers to acts by people we see as sub-human. Yet, humans are literally the only creatures on Earth with such egos that urge them to carry out malicious and cynical acts. One think I really like about this board (most of the time) are the discussions and debates like this. Even if slightly at a disagreement, intelligent conversation is somewhat refreshing.
Turnabout is fair play, whatever happens to this girl she now has it coming. I totally understand wanting to throw her into a river or wood chipper as I am sure anyone who has taken such a view is a dog lover, we think of them as family, and if anyone messed with my family a wood chipper would be a quick way to go. You do not mess with things that have no defence i.e. children and the elderly and those pups were defenceless, if you break the rules of a civilised world do not expect a civilised response
This is untrue. There are Bottlenose dolphins that perform gang rapes (forget whether this is same-species or intraspecies), and some primates like orangutans and chimpanzees indulge in rape and even murder. They have been observed to do this in ways that are completely unrelated to procreation or survival.
I think the dolphin rape thing goes either way, there are vids of dolphins trying to rape people, territory enters into most "senseless" animal on animal murder instances
This is really interesting. Being one of the only other species that enjoy sex for pleasure, this totally makes sense. However, who knows if the dolphin individual actually has an ego. Seems like a dolphin rape may be solely for their physical pleasure, rather than for any underlying ego-driven motive. Regardless tho, a fun fact. Not that rape is fun. You get my point.
The implication of that is that there's no reason to act civilized except for self-protection purposes. Sort of like mutually assured destruction; I'll agree not to nuke but only you b/c I'm afraid you'll do the same to me. Not because I have some internal moral compass that tells me it's wrong. Trying to act in a moral, ethical manner should be an end unto to itself, not just an act of self-preservation (though social scientists say that's exactly what altruism is - ultimately it's a selfish act designed to get our genes into the next generation). I'm a pretty pragmatic person - some people can't be rehabilitated, some people can't be reasoned with, some people only understand brute force rather than reason (The movie the Dark Knight illustrates this beautifully and has become one of my favorites b/c of it. Unforgiven and the Mad Max movies are others that come to mind with similar messages). With some people, you've got to kill them before they kill you. Or they're incapable of being rehabilitated and, if society decides to put them to death, at least try to do it in a way that best preserves everyone's dignity (although for some that's an oxymoron). And it's true that there's a big difference between to Catch a Predator where mentally sick people are unknowingly lured into the open to be served up as entertainment for a self-congratulatory middle-American audience while the Bosnian girl chose to expose herself to the public (though we don't really know that for sure). But once someone posts stuff like that on a toy message board, isn't it really being done for the same reason MSNBC airs TCAP? What possible purpose does it serve other than to gawk or bolster our false feelings of superiority? Is there anyone who didn't already think killing puppies is bad? Let me end with this - I'm not trying to single out the people who posted the video or those who piled on in the comment section (I haven't even paid enough attention to those posts to remember avatars) - because it's irrelevant to my point. In fact, I've done the same kind of thing in my own past. Even so, it's still not ok to let people off the hook when we see this stuff happening (just b/c I've been stupid in the past doesn't mean I'm going to let you be also). In fact, I most certainly would have learned important lessons earlier in my life had someone caused me to seriously reflect on my thoughts and actions. The biggest danger is believing that because one is part of some alternative culture, it's always the "squares" that are wrong, not us. Our behaviors and thoughts are much closer to the square world than any of us would like to believe (it's one reason why I always hate it when one political party demonizes the other - dudes, you're way more alike than you know). I'll bet Christian or Muslim fundamentalists sit around their own message boards dumping on the infidels/non-believers all around them. Because they're so busy demonizing others, they never see the irony that their own behaviors (""I'M ABOUT TO BE BANNED" must die!") are far worse than any of the behaviors they attack. Just because you get a tattoo, or drink coke instead of beer, doesn't exempt you from life's difficult ironies. The biggest danger is believing that to be so. Stay vigilant and sharp. FWIW.
[quote="ElvisFromHell In fact, I've done the same kind of thing in my own past. Even so, it's still not ok to let people off the hook when we see this stuff happening (just b/c I've been stupid in the past doesn't mean I'm going to let you be also). In fact, I most certainly would have learned important lessons earlier in my life had someone cause me to seriously reflect on my thoughts and actions. [/quote] definately some times I wish someone had put my nose in my own mess
Stupid euro-thrash I FART A LOT. I would reenact a few of the scenes from the movie Salo with her as the sole submissive role... She should go kill herself before she turns into a serial killer.
