I'm not so sure Marmit is trying to appear underground so much as avoiding any possible liscencing issues.

This type of thing has happened before. The APES Kong figures from a year or two ago spring to mind. Toho Kong stuff is very difficult to liscence so these Kong figures were produced under the company name APES. It's still a big mystery who was really behind those figures(at least to me).

Again, playing devil's advocate...I'm not sure what the distinction is between an "interpretation" of an old toy as opposed to a "rip off," but I think there is some sort of due diligence expected of the producer to give the product legitimacy.

If Gargamel didn't make efforts to contact the creators of the original Sekaino Kaiju designs and/or Daikyo or IKB before they made their toys (and nobody knows for sure whether or not that's the case, perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in), then they're unfairly making money off of other peoples' ideas, wouldn't you say?

Also, Gargamel has done reissues in the past. They did black and white reissues of the original Marusan/Bullmark Godzilla and some of the Ultra Q monsters. They were really cool.Well, like them or not, Marmit was one of the first companies to make retro-styled vinyl kaiju. Like Medicom, they've grown over the years, but I don't really see this situation as a huge mega-corporation trying to squash the little guy. There does seem to be a little bit of nose-tweaking going on, though.

And don't fool yourself, EVERYONE in this business wants to "cash in" or "sell out" or however you want to put it.I agree, and I think the aftermarket prices for these is starting to affect the situation.

Again, devil's advocate: before Gargamel came along, those old IKB and Daikyo toys were pretty cheap, and you could get them for less than $100, sometimes even less than $50. Now that Gargamel has popularized the designs, the prices have shot up. I can't really blame Gargamel for this, but this is one thing you could see as a negative impact on collectors.The copyright notice on Zagora's header card makes it appear that Marmit has established some sort of licensing arrangement with Daikyo.And I'm sure the creators want it that way. ;p

Just want a Smoggun to go with my Bemon, without having to pay out of my pie.

I agree with all your points, Roger but they stray from why I think the repro's are lame. Simply put, they're capitalizing on gargamel's success and groundwork in the NWOJK* industry and I think that's the easy way out and is entirely uninspired (other than financial inspiration).

You're very right, there's a fine line between interpretation and rip-off. In the case of Gargamel, I think the intentions are sincere, because they were putting out these toys before there really was a market for them as opposed to making knock offs to poke people for cash. It's the same with the mutant chaos and its undeniable frankenruge inspiration.

It's just lame when companies/artists just try to capitalize on trends to make money, or keep their art relevant. Gargamel started doing this when there really wasn't a trend.


*I hate this term, but it's appropriate.

I'm not agreeing one way or the other, but this discussion is fantastic and I've learned a few things here.

This is what we need to be seeing over here more often.

carry on...

I agree 100% - I LOVE seeing the passion expressed for these toys. Reading the posts, I was just reflecting on how into this stuff all of us are - in the best way. I love the fact that we're such passionate collectors and can spend so much time (sometimes too much time) comparing notes about this stuff and learning. I think the fact that a lot of these toys (especially the vintage ones) are shrouded in some mystery and whether new or vintage, the time it takes to hunt them down - all of it contributes to the fun of collecting these things.

Excellent discussion!

I enjoy discussing stuff like this. There are a lot of different layers to the issue that make it interesting.

Please fill me in on NWOJK, though? This acronym is new to me.

New Wave Of Japanese Kaiju = NWOJK

http://softvinylmonster.sakura.ne.jp/nwojks.html

Cool, thanks. I see Zagora and Zagoran there.

I mostly agree with bryanarchy.

To give Marmit some credit, though, they have been at it a long time (10 years anyway). I have no doubt they also have love and passion for soft vinyl kaiju. They have helped create and sustain at least some of the fan base that Gargamel has tapped into. I can also see influence and inspiration flowing from Marmit (Parababies in particular) to the creators and artists of the newer companies. But Gargamel is one of the companies that is really moving things forward by re-interpreting the classics, creating their own figures and working with today's best artists.

That said, I do not plan to buy any Hukkokudo re-issues, for many of the reasons bryanarchy has already stated.

Just wanted to add something to underline a point I made earlier: sooner or later, everybody bows down to the power of the almighty dollar (or yen) and "cashes in," or "sells out," or whatever you want to call it:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/gargamel/archives/50229301.html

I mostly agree with you too Roger. But the profit motive varies in strength - sometimes it takes the lead and sometimes it follows.

Wow. Lotsa heavy accusations here: "lack of integrity," "taking advantage," "shameless" etc...

The fact is that we're more than fifteen years in to the fad for retro vinyl (M1, B-Club, and Marmit all started producing this stuff in the early to mid '90s) and most of the obvious repros and portrayals of characters never made as toys have been done already. Actually I think the ever-dwindling reserve of marketable vintage characters is a big part of what created the market for "urban vinyl" in the first place.

I betcha that even if Gargamel hadn't popularized the characters with their versions of the Daikyo designs, chances are SOMEBODY would have produced repros of them at some point. They may seem insanely obscure to us, but you can't really underestimate the encyclopedic knowledge Japanese collectors have about vintage vinyl, or any other kind of toys.

Just a thought.

Welcome to the board Matt!!

I say more toys from more companies the better. Let the collectors and the market decide!

Stop making me look bad, Roger!



AltJapan- Your point is totally rational and it's definitely something that hadn't crossed my mind. Between Patchi Kaiju and Japanese companies turning to western artists and designers to come up with toy designs, it's clear that they're look at ways to keep the vinyl scene fresh and new. I am sure that companies are always looking for new characters (especially those which haven't be released in toy form at all, or even recently) to add to their lines.

I really just feel the timing of their release is blatantly capitalizing on Gargamel's success. This is how the free-market system works, I'm aware of that. If anything, this is a reminder that these toys are commodities and we're here to pour money into these companies, good or bad.

I'm idealistic and stubborn and I believe people and companies should be responsible and respectful. I'm also realistic in knowing this can't always be the case, but I will always throw out heavy accusations if only to get people thinking about these things.

I agree, this is definitely something for companies to strive for and for us as consumers to be aware of and expect from them. But from my viewpoint, here's the situation as I see it, based on what has been discussed here, and there is a fundamental difference:

- When Gargamel made their toys they did not get any sort of permission from Daikyo/IKB.

- When Marmit/Hukkokudo made their toys, they contacted Daikyo/IKB and worked out some sort of agreement with them.

Granted, these perceptions are based on a fair amount of assumption, but I see a copyright notice on Hukkokudo's header cards inferring some sort of legitimate arrangement, and I don't see anything on Gargamel's site that seems to acknowledge any prior ownership of the characters. (Of course, if someone with some insight like Koji could step up and clarify this for us, it would be appreciated.)

And again, it makes me wonder. Why didn't Gargamel reissue these themselves?

Underlying all of this is Daikyo, which (to the best of our knowledge) did not get permission from the original creators of the Sekaino Kaiju books in the first place to make toys like Zagora, Mightin, etc. I realize that complicates the issue even further, and almost puts both companies on shakier ground.

I know that Gargamel and Marmit have co-produced toys before, and these Hukkokudo toys do seem like a deliberate grab for market share on the part of Marmit, but I can't fault either company for making a move to compete with each other if they do it fairly, and even though the timing is fortuitous for Marmit, I think they've acted fairly.

It's also entirely possible that the conflict over these figures really just exists on boards like this and 2chan and there is no genuine animosity between the companies, but again, we really don't know until someone sheds more light on this.

I have a strong feeling your assumptions are correct. I doubt gargamel got any permission but I would also bet that at the time Gargamel started doing these toys, these old toys were all but forgotten except by the Flynns, Chapins and harcore Japanese collectors. I'm sure no one really cared, and why would they? At that time, the zeal for this sort of vinyl wasn't like it is right now.

You're totally right though, this could likely not matter to the companies at all. This is completely speculation on our parts. Maybe Gargamel is happy that marmit is doing these toys.

my assumption is that Gargamel redid these toys which were originally not copywrighted and were pretty much in "public domain". someone correct me if I'm wrong. Their success brought the attention of some major players who wanted part of the action.

I'm probably not saying anything people around here don't already know, but the '60s and '70s were a pretty fast and loose time for copyright law in Japan and a lot of different fly-by-night companies churned out bootleg Bullmarks and semi-original characters. A lot of these guys tried to cover their tracks back in the day, so now, thirty years after the fact, you can hardly blame someone for not being able to track down who's responsible. There's a section in the (Japanese-language) biography of Bullmark/Ark executive Saburo Ishizuki that talks about him going bootleg-busting, like Elliot Ness and the Untouchables, in the wilds of Osaka in he 1970s.

Anyway, the way I see it, the Zagoran/Hedoran are the toy equivalents of rap or techno songs. Gargamel "sampled" the Daikyo designs for their own original "remixes." Marmit is doing a "cover song." Both versions are cool in their own ways.

That is hilarious! I can image someone busting down a door and a bunch of japanese men wearing spray masks fleeing in every direction!



This is a really good analogy but all i can think of is popular artists doing covers to prove their street cred, cash in on a song they like or they can't think of anything original to do.

I hate resurrecting old heated threads but I thought I just had to post these pics.
I love both versions. Both are beautiful in their own right. I love the size and detail of the original, but I'm a fan of Gargamels version which is so simple and clean. I say more versions of the Zag from different people. The more the merrier. I'm off to get a full scale Zag tattoo.

edited*

I've been waiting for some comparison shots, thanks!

I wonder why the spines were omitted from Gargamel's version. A deliberate omission? Or maybe the sculptor was working from a shot that just showed the front?

I saw one of those orange Hukkokudo reissues go for over $200 on eBay last week. The one-eyed bug is biting.

I love all the stuff unconditonally, and as for morals, well it *is* the toy industry. I'm even excited for when the pre-order KT Hukks will ship. Couldn't get my hands on a Gargamel for love or ebay, so I'm pretty happy to have any opportunity as a newer collector. Just my opinion, not disagreeing with anybody else.

really? I just picked this one up and thought I paid too much since it was already out of the bag for $100.