Unfortunately I think this is also true. This was the report when they were awarded the games

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/olympic_votes/1436575.stm

and the general mood, with a lot of people defending the decision

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/sports_talk/1436914.stm

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, with a dose of sarcasm and exaggeration.

All you need to know about the facts of tibet-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrb51EGXGqs

Thanks for the link, scotty!

i've read that the land that is tibet is militarily/strategically very valuable

FYI, China has shown a lot improvement with human rights issues from my perspective. I've lived there, my wife is raised there, I can sense how good & bad China is at the moment. Granted they still need improvement, you're also being too closed minded if you feel that the country is as bad as is sounds from all the negative Tibet feedback. What you're expecting is a country that is a well 10 - 20 years behind in economics, education, state of thought to fully catch up with first world democratic country standards is just unreasonable. In fact, I think the communist government of China are doing a damn good job of running the place. Bringing a population of over 1.3 billion out of turmoil and poverty is not easy and they definitely deserve a pat on the back for acquiring the rights to the Olympics.

Geez... Tibet is sooooooo Check Your Head...

Seriously though.

Tibet is full of mineral resources that China wants.
China is the worlds fastest growing economy, and with a new industrial gold rush type town popping up everyday (a small, but only small exaggeration), they need all the resources they can grab, and grab they will.
They do similar things in Mongolia, I have a mate who used to work for mineral mining companies in Mongolia, and the stuff he told me, the levels of corruption etc, was truely amazing! For all my suspicions and doubts of heavy handed governments, there were plenty of tales that made me say "that doesn't happen."
Admittedly, Mongolia at least appears to have a level of independance, but in reality, they are still tied to China.
If China is doing anything like that stuff in Tibet, then there is no way the will ever let it go.

The whole thing is pride based.
China decided that they wanted to do this global torch relay, there is no real tradition to this, and certainly not on this scale.
Today, the IOC suggested that China rethink their plans on continuing the relay, and China stubbornly declined.
When asked about what they thought of all the protests, the "people on the streets" of China either hadn't heard of it or were convinced that it was because the West was jealous and trying to steal the games back for themselves.
At the moment, the world media has access to China like it has never had before, and even so, the BBC website has been blocked several times in China.
China was granted the Olympics on the basis that they would address thier human rights issues, slave/child labour, forced disappearances, one child/family murders, police state policies etc etc.
Based on that, China has opened the door to the rest of the world to use it as a political platform for reform (to coin a phrase).
Over the years, the Olympics have been used to protest, from Germany to Russia and a few others I forget off hand
No reason to stop now, now that a genuinely good cause is before us.

Things will change when the Dali Lama dies, the monks are split between direct action and peaceful protest. the DA monks are held back and the DA leaning peaceful monk are held back by the Dali's existence and insistence. When he dies, all that will most likely change, for the worse.
As it is the DA monks have blown up parts of a new rail line into Tibet that China insists is for transportation and commercial trade. In reality it is used for transporting minerals.

In the meantime, Monks are being killed and goaded into defending themselves so that they can then be attacked.
It's pretty sad, not in a pathetic way, but painful way.

Maybe it's a new bandwagon for the lefty liberal scum to jump on, but, sometimes the band need some back up - Get on the STAGE!!! (sorry, couldn't help the spermbirds attack!)

I don't see this as "du jour" - it's certainly gained more attention due to the Olympics - but there's been visible support for decades.

well, yeah.. i do know there has been support in the past. then the beastie boys travel to another venue

Just a little info on Sino-Indian relations...

-India and China have had border skirmishes over Tibet going back to 1950, and as recently as the late '80's.

-China backed Pakistan in it's war with India.

-India claims it's nuclear tests had just as much to do with China's power in the region, as Pakistan's.

Relations have improved greatly between the 2 countries over the last 10 years, but it still comes down to both countries are competitors over regional power and resources, as they are the most populous nations in the world. I have no doubt China won't ever willingly give up Tibet as a buffer, or because of it's resources.

I think of them as the Richard Gere of popular music. They really mean it.

Bjork probably does too although her ill-conceived outburst in China a few weeks ago certainly coincided with her compelling current single and video "Declare Independence." It is an eternally important theme though. There were socially conscious artists during the American Revolution too.

anyways... thanks for some of the info. today i listened to the radio (not news radio.. just the alternative music station) & the DJ's were just saying how awesome the golden gate bridge was, and how it was for a good cause, etc. etc. and i wonder to myself... do these people even know what the issue is at hand? (because i don't even fully understand myself). someone tells me they're oppressed... ok, let's go free them! i'm still skeptical of the whole thing though as i think the whole thing is alot more complex than most people make it to be... it's like saying the terrorists are attacking us just because they are envious of our freedom

disclaimer: i was in China 8 years ago when they were awarded the olympic games, and it was a very BIG deal (at least it seemed like it on TV. i'd just left beijing a few days before and was stuck on some mountain). they were also promoting the stoppage of blowing snot rockets in the buses by the time the olympic games arrived.

What I'd like to know is if Tibet is freed, what kind of government would they put in place? A theocracy? If so, I'm not a big fan of those.

Free Tibet? I'll take it!

Tibet is far from the only issue with China, just the most well known and supported. The government also oppresses Falun Gong, a religious group inside of China, and many claim that China kills Falun Gong dissidents to harvest their organs.

I don't know where to start since there are so many things happening here whether has reached your end of the shore. I also find it hard to keep up with all the crap in Tibet/China/Taiwan and even Hong Kong.

On a day to day level though, I have come across a few things or have heard stories which is very scary. Basically after 1997 handover in Hong Kong when China took back the reign from the British, Hong Kong has been in the media in China as a place WITHOUT crime. No triads, no killings, an island of peace and safety. Why? Cos China wants to let their people see that the British put poison into HK with their western teachings. After China take Hong Kong back, this place is now clean from White Ghosts (term used for Westerners).

I can go on but it's just sad. My friend works in the film industry and she told me that any films with stories of crime, rape, murder etc. that occurs in a period after 1997 gets rejected by the Government. It's just hard to swallow what else the Government is doing to this "Special region" with media and the law.

Here is a documentary from BBC about Tibet recently.
http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2 ... isode.html

Also this was on Channel 4 end of last month called Undercover in Tibet.
You can download on BT from here: http://www.mininova.org/tor/1286773

Some info about it...

I think the larger issue is not whether Tibet is a part of China or not, but whether they're allowed the religious freedom to live their lives according to their beliefs. If China would stop destroying buddhist temples and killing buddhist monks then it wouldn't be such an issue - it'd be more like Quebec talking about seceding from Canada every 8 years.

Sorry to be off topic in this thread...

I try to avoid Iraq war discussions because it just seems to get the blood boiling on both sides and I'm here to enjoy myself, but this is partially inaccurate.

Kuwait was slant drilling under the border into Iraq and stealing their oil. Saddam (who was a scumbag dictator for sure, albeit one we supported for years when it fit our interests to do so) approached the U.S. stating his intentions to invade Kuwait. There is controversy about whether or Saddam agreed to more negotiations before invading, but it was not unknown to us that he was going to invade Kuwait and why.

We also know now that the "atrocities" alleged to have been committed by Iraqi troops in Kuwait, which when told in Congress prompted us the start the Gulf War, were untrue.

By the way, I by no means think Saddam was an awesome guy, nor would I ever imply such a ridiculous thing. I hate that I had to write that disclaimer, but every time I hear that an argument against war is an argument for our enemy or some other similar retarded crap like that I want to gouge my own eyes out, so I figured I'd just get that out of the way now.

And I think saying that the comment that more civilians have died and been displaced in Iraq than in the whole occupation of Tibet means they know nothing about world affairs is unfair. I think the facts would show that the logic behind their statement is not totally unfounded. Between the Gulf War, the aftermath of the Gulf War and the devastation of this current war, a huge amount of civilians have died in Iraq. The problem with arguing this point is that in both cases, the number of casualties is in dispute. Regardless of how a person feels about the political side of the issue and whether or not one feels the U.S. is as least partially responsible (but the argument that it's all Saddams fault for making us go kind of makes me think of a perpetrator of domestic violence - "You made me hit you" ) this seems to not be a baseless claim. In either case - lots of civilians died, and that is just fucking horrible. No one can argue that.

P.S. Free Tibet!

I know a few people in the Hong Kong film industry, and after talking to them it seems like after 1997 the film industry is nothing but triads. Their stories make it sound like the 1970's mafia run U.S. porn industry.

They made it seem like less is done about crime (specifically triad related) since 1997, not the other way around. Do you feel the same way?

I don't know if you mean that it's run by triads or that films in general are always about triads. To me, it's seems like it has always been both... even before 97. Signature HK films are always triad + action film that make the most money. There seems to be less triad street fighting or media coverage on it, less of the hand bound machetes running through Kowloon streets hacking away at each other... this was more evident pre 97. Hence the common HKer would be more inclined to see these films because they miss out on this action they use to read/witness about pre 97.

It could also be that triads have upgraded in recent years and infiltrated into the upper echelons of the community, they are much more educated now (uni grads) and hold positions of higher authority.

I meant that the business is run by triads, nothing to do with film content.

As you said though, a lot of Hong Kong films have been about triads regardless of time period, but post 1997 they seem to be almost cheerleading for the triads (Johnnie To being an occasional exception), the Young and Dangerous series (started in 1996 just before the takeover) being the obvious example. They almost seem like recruiting videos.

This is so true.

the theocracy that would be reinstated is a fuckload better than the "democracy" in the states- i'm an atheist but i'll take buddhists leading tibet over christians leading the US any day!

Kidclam: that doco was shown here last monday - it was interesting to say the least. in mainland china there is one army/law enforcement officer for something like every 1,000 people, whereas in tibet it's 1 for every 20.

These people have NO freedom, they are forced to live by the one child rule, women are sterilised, people are forced to work in factories where the chemicals make them blind (ever thought that made in china could in fact mean made in tibet?)

Also i think the olympics is the perfect platform to raise awareness of china's atrocities, either direct or through financial/economic means. As an aside I'm not very clued up on what their connection with either myanmar or darfur is - so if anyone can point me in the direction of some good sources to read i'd be thankful

ALSO my country is in the process of signing a free trade agreement with china, it makes me pretty angry not only because of china's HR but also because we're getting duped. Even our foreign minister is openly opposing it.

I am watching the docu now... the sniper shooting in the mountain border is just too shocking...