I think you'd do wise not to underestimate the Chinese. The US has been on top for a while, but that won't last forever. Rather than assume that the US will keep its top spot, and rest on those laurels, it would behoove every American to prepare for the 21st century by acquiring language skills, international experience, and job flexibility.

Actually, in the coming years, more and more jobs will be heading to India. And I don't mean call center jobs. I'm talking about business operations, R&D, design, etc. US corporations don't care about US workers. They care about fattening the bottom line and increasing executive bonuses. There are thousands of highly educated Indians ready to do whatever you do for 1/5 the price. Easy decision for a big company.

Crazy times ahead....

Yeah, I wonder what's going to happen with China in the next decade or two. Most of our debt is owed to them, as far as I know, and I think they're going to beat us in the next space race.

I can see more and more jobs going to India until things finally go nuclear with Pakistan. Imagine all of those American companies' computer records going bye-bye in an EMP.

China and Japan are the two largest holders of US debt. The thing about China is it doesn't respond to intimidation and can't be cowed. Basically you've got the next superpower in the making. Whatever ramifications that will have are anybody's guess.

interesting discussion. I agree with much that's been said about this flatting world and China. Still I wonder if China will ever truly be a prosperous super-power in that it's system of government is suspect. Historically, democratic systems (with all their problems even) seem to be most able to raise the standard of living for all. India would seem on the track (if they can get over their caste system) but I wonder if China won't become a super-power in the sense the Soviet Union was... powerful but not too cool of a place for the average joe to live.

It's actually a remarkably free place to live. Talk to the average Joe and he's pretty happy. People just don't like to talk about the government. Besides that, there are enormous freedoms (and incredible wealth!!!)

I dunno....the US monitors people's library records and records their phone calls. How free is that?

Come on, Creaturion...the average American is still pretty "free".

yeah... the people just don't like to talk about the government... wonder why?

What do you mean? We're talking about the government now.

I think George Bush will go down in history as the worst American president EVER.

Now, that's strategery in action!

Sure the US is free, but a lot less free than it was 5 years ago.

And China is certainly no paradise. But neither is it the totalitarian gulag the media paints it to be.

I talk to too many folks in the US who honestly feel the US is the greatest place in the world. (It's a kind of programming, I realize. I'm American, so I grew up with it, too.)

Like I said, this is not the time to rest on one's larurels and go on believing that the US is the greatest thing going. It isn't. No country is, and every country has its strengths. And yes, other countries will rise at the US's expense. It's going to happen.

I'm not trying to put down the US. I'm just saying it's time to be more globally minded, since the rest of the world is hell bent on leather to whoop some economic ass, and they aren't taking prisoners.

You really think so? Do you base this on your personal experience?

I haven't felt that any of my freedoms have lessened. I'm able to live exactly the same way as I did five years ago, although I'm not too happy that the NSA knows how many times I called Domino's.

I would say the same for my friends and family, too. The only people I know who have suffered for the past five years are people who lost loved ones and friends on 9/11 and people who have been laid off due to economic conditions, but neither of those things can be blamed on a loss of freedom.

Sure, what I'm presenting here is a limited point of view, but I'd like to know what you base yours on. What have you seen with your own eyes that makes this a different America than five years ago?

Andy i agree with many things you are saying, but not being allowed to talk about your govt. is kind of a HUGE thing.

and Roger just because you don't percieve the crunch on civil liberties in the US does not mean that its not occurring.

- Spending an hour to get through airport check ins.

- Having my personal belongings thoroughly searched before entering a number of different buildings or events.

- Being unable to open a bank account without supplying a trillion forms of proof that I live in the area.

Just a few off the top of my head, and all of them enacted under the guise of keeping the US safe from terrorism. That same reasoning is what's behind the Patriot Act and other activities that are curtailing people's lives more and more.

See, people think these measures (this includes shutting down the US/Mexico (but not US/Canada for whatever reason) border) are all enacted to keep you safe from terrorists. The way I see it, they're means of letting the government intrude on your lives more and more.

Michael Moore has had some interesting things to say about the culture of fear that is promulgated by the administration. Fortunately more and more voices are making themselves heard over these issues and aren't as fearful as they once were about being labeled "unpatriotic" when questioning the government.

I didn't say that it wasn't, I was just curious to see if creaturion had any personal experiences that were informing his opinion.

Jackie, like I said.....see this is the thing - It's not an either/or situation in any country, including China or the US....every place is a shade of gray.

I think one should be able to talk positively about any country without "catch alls" instantly negating those positives. In China's case, all I was saying is everyone I met was working damned hard to make a buck and wasn't really interested in the government. Now, just because they don't talk about their gov. doesn't negate what the common people are doing or how they're advancing, and it doesn't mean they're all unhappy.

I do think that economic advances will lead to more poltiical openness. It's just going to take time in China, which will make those changes on its own schedule, regardless of what DC wants.

China is an enigma, and as a country it suffered horribly in the 19th and 20th centuries, first at the hands of European powers (Opium Wars) and then at Asian powers. It even fell out with Russia under Mao. The country has a long memory, and will basically act according to its own agenda.

Would I personally want to live there? Not at this time. I guess I'm comfy and stodgy enough where I am...for now.

perhaps i'm ignorant, but from what i understand it is still taboo to criticize ones govt. in China. if thats incorrect i apologize.

i made a brief comment on purpose because i still believe certain human rights are inalienable, regardless of where one lives.

it's one comment, i don't wish to jump into the fray.

To what end?

I've had to do two of these three things in the past five years, and I'll agree that having to submit to them does make things less convenient, but it doesn't make me feel I'm actually being prevented from doing something. I can understand why you dislike it.

However, I really don't see the things you cite as recent developments. I remember being searched when I've entered courthouses and sports stadiums long before 9/11, in response to the bombings in Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center. Perhaps it's because I live near NYC, in an area where one of these tragedies happened that I've been more accustomed to it.

Also, to give things a more global perspective, our security protocols are still very light when compared to other countries. I've heard incredible stories from relatives about what travel in Israel is like, and I've always felt that the inspections I've submitted to in Japan are as rigorous or even more so than the ones I've gone through here.

Regarding the bank account item, don't you think that in a time when identity fraud is getting more common and more easy to commit, that requiring more ID actually benefits you? I think it's a good thing.Ghostbuster might see a connection with terrorism, but I don't. And I don't see how any of the measures proposed will affect the freedoms of people who are already citizens. Can you give some examples?Moore doesn't just point the finger at the government, though, he also blames the media, and I agree with him. He made a really good case for this in both Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11. Unfortunately this has been part of human nature for a long time, almost since the beginning, to have our decisions driven by fear. I wish we could do something to overcome it.

I've been searched before entering live music venues long before 9/11.

I do hate the Airport Security screeners but I don't see it as an infringement on my rights.

I hear ya, Jackie. The way I see it, processes move differently in different countries. For a country like China that is as removed from European culture and legal traditions as you can get, things are going to move at a different pace. Yes change will be slow, and yes it will be frustrating. Full democracy may never come. (It certainly won't come in the next 10 years.) The dynamics with 1.3 billion people are not the same as with 275 million.

Plus remember that in its early days, the US was not at all a democracy. After the US War of Independence ended, it was 150 years before women won the right to vote. So...time...and patience.

If I catch you at SDCC, I'll launch into all sorts of tangential info and discussions about all this, if you like. But that would take a while and a few beers.

Roger: You got that right about traveling in Israel. That can be sometihng else. My luggage was inspected more rigorously at the airport there than anywhere else.

Japan is fine, though once I was chosen for a random bag inspection at an airport. But it didn't cause me to miss my plane, which did happen just last year in Little Rock, because I committed the heinous crime of buying a ticket at the counter. Want to know the kicker? I learned from Southwest later that had I given them my frequent flyer number, my ticket would not have been tagged to be checked automatically by security.

Anyway, I don't mean to be ragging or sound like a negative nelly. No system is perfect. On that note, I think I shall politely withdraw from this convo.

Now I need breakfast.

shifta, you crazy!!!

so much to say I will just quote a hero of mine:

You may like a piece I recently commissioned.

(details on hold until I receive it)

I visited Monticello last year, as well as the University of Virginia. I've also conducted research into Jefferson's life. Would that our modern leaders possessed 1/10th of his caliber...

I would be happy if they would just read what he wrote