Maybe we are a little rough on the KR transfers, but from what I've seen it's generally not undeserved. It seems more like certain people can't take the criticism and throw a little tantrum, delete all their posts/photos and leave. So whatever. It's a community. If their ego is too big to accommodate our few simple rules, thanks and there's the door. There's been a lot of great new-ish members, which is always fun because it sort of allows us to see the toys with new eyes.

I think there is definitely a place for good western toys on skullbrain, and we generally don't ignore decent toys purposefully out of a sense of bias. There is just a comparatively large amount of garbage western toys relative to the releases by Japanese vinyl companies, so whatever passes through the filters on to the boards is pretty limited. This has always struck me as a message board about 'high quality' toys (I pick up my kaiju with a pinky extended) so why sort through the chaff in hopes of finding a few lost grains of wheat? If the toys are good, people will post about them, we'll talk about them, and hopefully some of us will buy a few. I don't think there is any particular reason to promote more western toy discussion for the sheer sake of growing our community.

Re: the Kidpunk discussion, this is an interesting exchange to me since it ties into a broad spectrum of issues at once.

Since Brian brings up the point of 'intent,' that brings me to a second point of curiousity. Why is it 'wrong' for KR to do this, yet we accept things like the two-headed Bemon without raising the same questions? The reason given is that KR is attempting to use these designs as far as possible without paying the artists and bands responsible. So is the Bemon guy not getting paid for producing that sculpt? Is he paying the current owners of the rights to that magazine image? That sculpt is extremely similar to the old magazine cover (which I assume was drawn by an artist at some point), but was essentially passed off as new material. Homage or copy? I call that a copy, much more than Kidpunk. What bothers me is that we are applying two different standards to the same behavior based on whether or not we like the end result.

Maybe it is (as Roger notes) the harm committed to an individual artist versus the 'victimless' crime of appropriating a faceless corporation's property. I don't know. I guess corporations are bad? But isn't Super 7 some sort of business entity? It's not a bunch of guys sitting around in the back room shooting the bull about toys.

The real reason that I ask these things is that I question the purpose of this thread itself. I think it is beyond discussion that we don't care for KR and KR-related paraphernalia. If we're going to call them out for "stealing" the products of other artists/bands, let's not gloss over the fact that the artists and companies that we love often do similar things with different motivation (presumably). Unless you live in a concrete house, don't throw rocks at the neighbors, ya know?

Not to argue the point either way, but I think that 2-Headed monster image may be public domain. Anyone know? Also, does anyone actually know the artist who did it?

Also on the 2-headed monster, I'd go homage, it is a thin line though. No, not because I like it and don't like KR's stuff. It existed ONLY as a generic illustration, we can't even call out WHO designed it. It's design, itself, an homage too. It's not really an original character. But anyway, it was an illustration who's purpose was to dawn the cover of a magazine and look cool. Bemon took that and made it 3-D, which seems to be his whole "thing." Taking existing images of generic characters (can anyone pipe up to WHO designed the Mosugon/Pollution Monster?) and making them into toys, bringing them into a whole new realm for love of what they are.

KR's "punk" toys seem like "hey d00dz, 'punk' sells to kids who buy vinyl, let's make a 'punk' version and just use these bands images/album covers/logos but with OUR name on them!" Seems different to me. Again, my opinion on it isn't based on what my tastes are, just the whole way it all seems to have been done. The KR punk toys seem more like marketing than anything. At least to me. Didn't I say I was done commenting?

Akum6n makes some really good points.

Quite a lot of the stuff made by new kaiju companies are derivative of earlier figures, drawings, etc. (whether they're meant as tributes or in what "spirit" they're construed is kind of beside the point). That's why in some sofubi circles in Japan "neo-kaiju" has a very bad rep and is sometimes referred to as "pachi" (fake).

Personally, I see a lot of grey in all this. It's all so intertwined, sticky, and incestuous that it's hard to sort out what's what. At the end of the day, this is all so peripheral that very few of the larger companies will ever stand up and take notice.

I don't think anyone here hates western toys. I have several, Biskup, Kaws, Bwana, Baseman, etc. and we have covered these artists since day one. Quality toys stand out no matter what side of the pond they are on. That said, at some point we need to actually have some genuine discussions about toys again (like this one - 4pages!), instead of sixty posts about how everything coming out is rad. It's not. In fact, a lot of it is not. There are some really crappy toys coming out of Japan, and some really crappy toys coming out of America. I think we should be a little more critical of what is out there, if not, we just end up with another pile of poop vinyl that everyone thinks everyone else loves. Now, we all have different opinions of good vs. bad, so that should be able to get opinions out in the open, but if we can't call a spade a spade, then what are we here for? Many of us have highly developed taste, and we need to actually direct that taste. We can disagree politely and actually talk about substantive ideas.

If the board scares of KR kids, that is silly, I thought they were toy collectors, not board collectors. If they are generally interested in the toys, they will lurk and one day come in. You can't make someone like what they don't like.

Lastly, platform toys. I think they suck. Why cover someone else's idea with your idea? If you are going to spend the time to create something, you should go out and create your own toy instead of copping someone else's and covering it in your wallpaper. The only exception to this rule is Kubrick/Be@rbrick. As the inventors of the platform toy concept, the original has legs, even if they are worn out to the ground. They invented it, everyone else copied it. Toy2r copied Medicom, Kid Robot copied Toy2R, Everyone else copied Kid Robot, making platform figures a fourth generation knockoff in a few years. Dare to have an original idea, not just another variation of someone else's idea. At least that is what I think.

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2 headed Bemon. Not my style, but neither are any of the Bemons. An illustration on the header card of the original IKB smogon but never made. The IKB smogon is a reaction to the IKB Hedorah bootlegs. From the popularity of Hedorah, you get a whole derivative set of characters based on pollution/trash. I think the Smogon, which was finished by the IKB guys in the 70s is an interesting twist. Someone else 30 years later making the other toy, but executing it in a crude style to mimic the originals seems silly to me. It is one thing to make a crude toy because you can't make a good toy. It is another to make a crude toy just because you want to ape someone else's steez. The whole thing is just too ancillary and too badly executed for me. I think half of their demand is just the unavailability. If Bemons were easy to get, I bet no where near as many people would care.

Ah you're nuts! It's not silly. If the Bemon was done nicely it wouldn't match! It needs to match the IKB's otherwise what's the point? I can see his deal "Damn I wanted this toy as a kid to match, screw it, I'll make it!" I almost wish the eyes had the cheap silver discs too, to match up even MORE. Also do we KNOW Mr. Bemon can actually sculpt well (or whoever he hires?) Look at the 2-Header, that thing's ugly too, than again so is the drawing.

I agree on the last point, though. If Bemon's were easier to get, less would care. BUT I think a lot of people would be turned on to Bemon who claim to not care so much if they had one in hand. So tactile and hardy.

Next time you talk to the guys at Gargamel convince them to do a bemon. Then we'll all be happy.

Some of the most interesting discussion is when people critique a toy. Explaining what works and doesn't work for them. Sometimes you learn something new or develop a better vocabulary about sculpture and design. But people need to have thick skins or be able to defend their views in such an environment.

As I mentioned upthread, there's alot of garbage coming out both in the East and West. I don't think its constructive to publicly call such work "garbage" but one can constructively explain what doesn't work or what one would have liked to have seen.

We all don't have to like all of the same things. And if we did, it would certainly be boring.



This is how I view the colour changing customizers. Slapping their wallpaper on someone else's creation.



Don't talk blasphemy about the Bemon.

I'd say alot of the time it's the latter

As for the bemon. Lord bemon usually walks in the store anytime Brian is around and gets in an arguement with him about bemons. Because in fact, It's all lord bemon has... just bemons.

Whoa, hold on there a sec, Tex. Wasn't Medicom aping LEGO mini-figures when they made Kubricks?

(This conversation is getting meta-ironic. ;p)

Also...Brian, if you're specifically criticizing the Bemon stuff this part seems to make sense, but if you're making a general statement then you've just indicted M1GO, Marmit, Bear Model, and everybody else. These kaiju toys are meant to capture that vintage Marusan/Bullmark style. That's the whole point, to make that Titanosaurus, Pestar, etc. that Japanese kids should have gotten, and to make sure that it blends in with the vintage toys on the shelf.

Comparing the Two headed bemon to the KR toys is a false argument. The KR toys are designed to the lowest common denominator to reach the largest audience. Products like these dilutes the power of the original while offers nothing new. The two headed Bemon is probably not a money making project, at the current release rate this sculpt will probably never turn a profit. The figure does adds something to pop culture that did not exist before. The KR design is using pop culture references as a means to end (profit) the Bemon figure is an end in itself (or a means to lose money).

The problem with platform toys:

WTF!?! That is taking the term "platform" a little TOO seriously...

I have nothing against a little creative IP ripping — I've certainly done some of it myself — but it's hypocritical to condemn it in others while engaging in it yourself. I love some of the S7 t-shirts I mentioned but there's no way to deny that they rip other people's IP. Some of them may well fall within the allowed fair use of parody (I'm not a lawyer so I won't try to offer an opinion) but then so may the Kidpunks.

And no, I don't really see any difference between taking IP from a corporation and an individual. (And if you think the Sex Pistols weren't corporate, do some research...they were every bit as much an opportunistic construct as the Monkees.)

I came into toy collecting through an interest in art and design. I consider platform toys to be a canvas for an artist to express his or her talent, 3D prints if you will, and I strongly feel that the D*unny is the strongest platform for that purpose — the inclusion of them in MoMA's collection suggests that I'm not alone in this assessment. As a purely sculptural base it is worlds ahead of Q*ees or Be@rbricks. Tristan did an amazing job on the design; the proportions are lovely, the curves inviting, it has enough personality to inspire without having so much that it constrains, and the large head provides a great canvas for the artist. The D*unny is a chameleon; the sculpt often manages to disappear into the artwork. Q*ees and Be@rbricks always just look like themselves. While there are certainly plenty of uninspired designs (just as there are plenty of uninspired prints) the very best of them are outstanding examples of the artist's work. If you compare Gary Baseman or Tim Biskup's D*unny designs to their Q*ee designs, the D*unnys are far more integrated; it looks like the figure was made for the design. The Q*ees look like figures the artist painted.

As Brian pointed out, Medicom started the idea of a platform with the Be@rbrick, but if you look at the sculpt there is no artistry to it...it shows no signs of ever having been anywhere near a designer. It looks like a slight adaptation of a Lego toy. The Q*ee sculpt shows some evidence of design, but it couldn't break free of the Be@rbrick look.

I don't expect everyone to agree with what I wrote, but I'm no KR junkie defending everything they do (much of which is pretty poor). I came into collecting as an agnostic but the D*unny quickly won me over for its ability to showcase the artists' talents. It was true 2 years ago when I first started collecting, and it continues to be true with some of the outstanding new designs by Amanda Visell, Kathie Olivas, and others.

Z0MG!!!1!!11!!! That's a pretty hot 'sculpt' there, tyleR™. Was the square trademarked?

Can't wait to see Mist customize it.

I think this is where most us will agree to disagree paul. Also paul I don't think anyone will argue with the pistols being sellout whores. Wasn't that their schtick? Their music doesn't do much for me.

Either way I respect your opinion and your right to say it.

PS- Despite Brian's opinion on Bemon, 1628 post is safe haven for any Bemons. So if any Bemons are wandering the street homeless and are reading this...Feel free to stop by.

Kidrobot sells Super7 toys?

$80 for an Undead Cumberlain Halloween Edition?

Yikes.

http://kidrobot.com/products.cfm?dept=T ... n=28186005

We sell our over stock to DKE and I guess KR buys it and prices it really high. Not sure why they price it so high.

With respect to CB and his well constructed opinions . . . . the same reason they manufacture half-ass, lowest common denominator, sub standard quality KRap to sell to guys that (mostly) don't know any better . . . to make maximum $$$!

So much ado about nothing! And so much holier than thou posturing!

If you like it, buy it, collect it, desire it, whatever. If not, don't.

But don't villainize or degrade those that have different likes or taste than you do.

It is a personal, subjective decision. It should not be guided by group think or peer pressure.

I am not saying that I don't clearly prefer some toys over others. But to each their own...

Let it be.

Did someone leave the door open . . . again!

Brian's salient point about Punk having more to do with a POV than a "look and feel" made me think of a lot of things. As soon as I started lurking here, I noticed that there seemed to be some common ground, culturally and in terms of perspectives among Skullbrainers that weren't ostensibly related to kaiju or toy fandom ... Punk appreciation and Punk mindset primarily in my mind. Since that time this has been discussed openly a lot more than it was back then. Regardless of what Punk means to you or what generation of it was your first, there's always, in addition to the DIY thing, been a general contrarian attitude. Punk Rock had to happen because Rock was no longer Rock and Roll in the era of glossily produced Boston, Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac etc. Although I wasn't here at the beginning, my understanding is that Skullbrain was in part founded not soley for a more focussed appreciation of neo/kaiju, but also partially in response to the nonsense at the KR board and the increasingly limited codification of "Western" vinyl toydom. What I'm getting at is while I agree that sometimes there's an unjustified hate of Western vinyl and "KR" expressed here, the general attitude is kinda Punk in essence. KR being more like corporate Rock and Skullbrain/kaiju being more "street." So don't think you're the man just because you dis KR ... anyone can do that, but on the other hand, don't let anyone shame you for it either.

I'm tempted to rant on about the OG symbolism (and total lack thereof) of the safety pin, but I'll save that for some other time. You're welcome.

You left out the extra stick on ears, wings etc.

mr. flynn please go back to making monsters this thread wastes your precious talents and time. no matter who likes what or who produces what, i can't imagine anyone or any company doing things just for fun. profit equals budget & product equals integrity some folks & companies have it- most do not. being true to your roots, thinking outside the box, taking roads less traveled inspite of established avenues should be the 'underground' motivation- products should speak for themselves, and do.

if cash is the prime motivation then certain well walked paths will always yeild a profit in some market place. i guess that is the biggest 'difference' between folks here, we love us our monsters but care! so that said 'punk' for me, is a conscious mindset to be apart from within while being a part of something 'different' with DIY technique. i never saw that in KR so in turn never had arousing interest in their stufs. however i try to live by 'to each his own' so i agree with GEO as well.

i love robots but would never ever want to be one in person! at the end of the day it comes down to this, i am so very glad that KR did these as they have inspired me & others i hope(!) to go deeper in open graphic rebellion against this representation of 'punk' in the ugliest, in your face, hand of doom, the worlds are crashing down kinda way we can muster. these 'kid punk' are cute at best but 'punk' they are not, actually they seem closer to disco and so thank you.

The problem I have with KR stuff is it's just painfully forced like a Spencer Gifts of toys/kitsch. There's no real history beyond any of their stuff, and there are so many lies in what their designs imply. Forget about the punk stuff. Even their forced hip-hop aesthetic is annoying. Everything has to have a spray can, microphone or a boom-box? Really?

Good art shows. Bad art tells. And KR and lots of Western Vynil rubs me the wrong way. Kind of like Archie McPhee novelties; there's nothing original there and it's all a forced and narrow version of kitsch.

I'm someone who definitely straddles both "worlds," as it were. A vast (read: VAST) majority of my collection is Western Vinyl/Art, and, save for a scant few pieces, the "kaiju" (emphasize the quotes) I do own comes from Western artists (Tim Biskup's Dragamel etc.). That being said, I do still believe I "fit in" around these parts (well, at least in the American Idols forum) because Skullbrain really is where the intelligent talk is happening regarding the shit I dig, kaiju-related or not. Though I do respect, whole-heartedly, that this forum was built on Super 7 products, etc., which I do greatly appreciate.

Works from artists like KAWS, Le Merde, Bwana Spoons, Gary Baseman, Tim Biskup, and Buff Monster (a majority of my collection involves these folks) definitely straddle the line between "KR Board" and "Skullbrain," as they are not strictly neo/kaiju by any means, but honestly, I'd rather converse/share news/releases/pics etc. with the handful of smart folks here who have the same collecting interests I have than the (mostly, though there are many good folks too) childish morons over at KR. Trust me, I tried for long while before I discovered some folks here were in the same boat I was in. The climate there sucks because everyone is out to get into flame wars. Obviously, the reason the climate here can get harsh at times is because y'all are so fucking passionate about this stuff. Big difference. This thread is a perfect example. I see no reason to not call out shit that sucks, especially if the one who calls it out reasons why the shit sucks.

Collectors can come and go, but you guys are not the fly-by-night type. I respect this. Anyways, thanks for not kicking my ass to the curb, and I promise not to post pics of my new Sas Christian or Audrey Kawasaki prints here.