do you even keep the sarumon's that you buy?

Anyway..to me..it could boil down to semantics. Gargamel saw the drawings or ikb sculpts..put their own spin on them (which would never be confused with the originals) and called it right off the bat zokki kaiju.

Killer J from the get go seems to riff off original designs which isn't always a bad thing..especially when you are inspired. But when he posted up some obscure monkey which a lot of people knew nothing about, (myself included) he never came on board to address any of it. Which to me is weird since he's a member. It just seems like it was destined and marketed to be a cash cow. Start out with a bunch of 1-offs, get everyone involved, build hype..etc. Now I honestly do like some of of the Sarumon's that have been posted but if he would have come out and said.."he's my own interpretation of a marusan vinyl"..I doubt anyone would say jackshit.

By the way..the Jango scuplt is the worst fucking thing I have seen in a long time. It lacks originality and I think it's going to be the worst thing in vinyl I've seen all year.

Not sure why I am dredging up this old narrative - but this my take on it. Gargamel has never denied that their version was an interpretation of the original kaiju made by IKB, a long-defunct maker. They kept the name (basically) the same - which acknowledges that this was their take on an old classic "original" character. Stylistically they made it their own. They have continued the Zokki series in a similar style and have re-interpreted many kaiju from the same era. As far as I know Killer J has never acknowledged that his sculpt is in fact an interpretation / variation of an original character by Marusan (a company that is still in business BTW) - correct me if I am wrong. The name of the figure has been changed from the original implying that this is something new. There doesn't seem to be any stylistic re-interpretation rather the face design seems to be copied exactly from the original while details on the body have been altered.
In a nutshell - Gargamel has lovingly and stylistically interpreted a classic character - Killer J had a sculptor "cut and paste" the head of a Kaiju he liked and is trying to pass it off as something original.

Some valid points above. I wasnt collecting zags when Gargamel first did their interpretation - so I'm not sure how they introduced the character (whether it was fanfared as a tribute or such) but as is pointed out - it has a similar name making teh connection clearer. I am really not sure why KJ hasn't addressed this here - maybe the fact Marusan is alive and well and that makes it litigious to admit the connection? Liely I'm talking out of my ass on that one tho.

As for teh HP's creating hype, well plenty of beloved toys and releases are hyped on Skullbrain and elsewhere, so singling Sarumon out doesnt make sense to me. My only crticism might be that Bemon did this already - so its not original, but also not criminal. The OCD in me loves looking at a poster of all teh versions in much the same way I used to love looking at kubrick boxes with all the versions, the percentage chance of scoring each....and those elusive secrets. The custom show idea and the sales of these blind bagged at near retail was a very cool idea I thought (well unless u got the Spooky Parade version) and oiginal.

In teh end for me I really like this toy and some of the different paint versions have been really appealing.

Yes, this is pretty much my feeling as well. Your facts are also correct to the extent that I am aware of the situation.

My big problem is that J is blatantly using the character of an existing company without any sort of permission or mutual understanding. Marusan even reissued Bera a little more than 10 years ago, so it's not like they don't know it exists. However, when you boil it down objectively, G's Zokki kaiju and J's Sarumon are not real different on a conceptual level. It's like the difference between finding a $20 bill in an empty hallway and keeping it, and seeing a guy accidentally drop a $20 bill on the ground and keeping it.

That new Mejira mini he is selling in the LB? It looks like a miniature carbon copy of a vintage standard size vinyl by an unknown manufacturer. Pretty shameless. But no one knows who made the original so it's 'free for the taking.'

Part of me would love to see Marusan call J on Sarumon, but I doubt it is worth their time and money. And I think he knows it.

I personally don't think Killer J is doing anything more offensive than has been done by others before him and that will be done by others after him.

I would say that they are polar opposites at the conceptual level.
Its the representative level where one might argue that they are not so different.

There is also the factor of context - when Gargamel released Zagaron - if I remember correctly - they were the first company to release new "original" Kaiju-style figures. This was when the other creators in the indie soft vinyl scene were making their own fight figure-sized creatures and the older makers before were still mostly making licensed figures based on Bullmark style tokusatsu monsters. Even if they were re-interpreting an obscure "original" Kaiju from the olden days it was still a pretty bold and unique move and had a huge influence on the direction of the scene.

So overall it's different because J never said "I'm ripping off something" like Garg did and that the original maker of J's rip is still around? Also Gargamel began ripping off things first?

Again, that's how it comes off. Design wise I really don't see the difference. Take something old, clean it up, release it with new paint. Take away the politics of it all and I still can't see the difference. I'm not defending J so much as I am still kind of confused about the situation in a strict, cold sense, no inner-toy-world-politics included.

Fuck it, I'm calling out the elephant in the room about this and am in NO way saying this is "it" or anything, or that anything's wrong with it, but it seems like Killer J's Saruman is getting shit because he is personally disliked and not for what it is. It SEEMS like that's the situation. Because he's not "in" and maybe (there were rumors right?) that he's somehow shady and junk that these are the reasons his toy is disliked. Again, not saying that's what anything IS but sitting from where I am on a purely spectator based side of things, it LOOKS that way.


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On Jango, the more I see that Jango thing the more I dislike it. Even if you wanted to make a toy mix-mashing stuff from other kaiju (which others have done w/o getting shit ) it's done poorly and just doesn't work.

Perhaps I should have said 'elemental level.' What I mean is that both G and J followed the same basic formula, as BD notes:

obscure vintage toy + new or stylized details = new toy.

The differences we pick out seem to be based on our subjective assessment of the situation more than anything else.

GALLAGHER VHS BOXED SET

I have nerver enjoyed prop "comedy", and the Carrottop is no exception. I ALWAYS considered it the lowest form of humor. This "collection" was on it's way to the trash heap when I thought I'd give it just one minute to see if my neighbor's VCR still worked. Lo and behold--it did!-- and a minute turned into 20, turned into a two-day-long binge marathon of gang busters viewings and re-viewings!! Huzzah!! The handsomely-balding cad had me rolling on the floors, up the walls, and across ceilings with his pointed, spot-on riffs and splatter-spewing props! SPOILER ALERT: Most of his props shoot gooey liquid (fruits, not human) at the audience. What was America thinking when it let this brand of humor die in favor of Jerry Seinfeld's meandering, point-deprived ruminations?! I only gave it 5 stars because you cannot give eight million! It almost made being fired from work and defriends on Facespace with my neighbor (AND asked not to "leave any more long messages OR ANY messages for-that-matter EVER AGAIN") worth it.

What? This is not the Carrotop Vs. Gallagher thread? Oh, sizzledots!

I think that the Gargamel Zagoran is a sublime and inspired interpretation - full of reverence and respect to the original character while achieving its own sense of newness and originality.
Zag was a ground breaking figure that opened the door to a whole new crop of makers and collectors of original Kaiju.
It certainly opened my eyes to great pantheons of Kaiju of the past that had been almost forgotten.
Gargamel has continued to release their Zokki series of homages to the obscure Kaiju of the time done in their personal style.

I would really like to hear from Killer J - on how he feels his figure relates to Marusan's Bera.
Why should someone think that it isn't a blatant rip-off?
Is it inspired by it? Was it intended to be interpretation of Bera that ended up looking a little too much like a copy?
Or is this his artistic process? Sampling features of older kaiju and creating new bodies for them.
Is it coincidence? A statement? Will he do more figures in this mode?
How does it fit in with his newest figure Jango? Star pet?
And whats this monkey that Bryce has referred too?

I definitely think this is worth discussing but I am can see I will never be able to bring some of you around to my perspective
on why these 2 figures and artists are completely different.
TB - what other examples were you thinking of that might shed light on this discussion?

Do any of you have photos to put up for comparison? In my mind I know what the Sarumon and Bera look like, as well as the Gargamel Zag. I don't know what the old Zag (the original monster) looks like. I figure a visual aid might help some folks in the discussion.

Even though I love the Sarumon, I do agree that its resemblance to Bera is undeniable. Thje only major difference (not the sole) is the height of the figure. (Correct?) Even though I do love what Gargamel does as well, I look at companies like Zollmen, Marmit, and Siccaluna, and see there is never a lack of ability to create original sculpts and still be prolific. Following with Datadub's opinion, while Garg's Zokkai line are homages/tributes/bootlegs/whatever, in my opinion, if I were to create such an homage, I would use it sparingly (like Miboru, for instance). Gargamel have more or less made the "bootlegs" their own by making Zags, Hedora, Rokuron, etc., regular releases.

I actually completely disagree with this. People, myself included, like the smoking star toy and his first toy. (I just didn't like the "J" on the back) The Jango, in my opinion, is terrible. However, the sarumon is a blatant rip off and gets shit for it.

haha I was thinking papa shango when I thought up the idea, but screamin jay hawkins works too, nice one!

I still see it as much of a "rip off" as the Hedoran (Hedolan?) or Zag. Is it cool for Garg since they were the first to bootleg a bootleg? Or because you like their personal style in particular more?

I'm being totally honest and not snotty when I say it, none of the arguments still hold up.

IKB Hedo: Rough old sculpt.
Bera: Rough old sculpt.
Garg Hedo: Cleaned up new sculpt based on rough old sculpt.
Sarumon: Cleaned up new sculpt based on rough old sculpt.

If the name wasn't Sarumon and more similar to Bera would it be ok? I mean Gargamel's not the only ones doing it, I can pull out a list, but they're the biggest/most accepted dudes doing it.

I have no problem w/ anyone doing this. The ONLY thing that seems weird is that a repro was already being made of Bero when Sarumon hit. Would it have not been cool for Gargamel to do theirs if Hukkokudo started doing the repros earlier?

Anyway, I think it's something tough to argue about on the internet. But still in cold facts it doesn't seem like Killer J is doing anything different than lots of others with Sarumon. It's as blatant a rip off as Zag or Hedoran or lots of others. I like rip offs though, bootlegs are fun.

NOTE: I like Gargs figures more anyway, but don't see much of a difference in the situations.

I love the old sculpt as well as the new. I'm not hating cause I'm selling;)
Awesome photo btw COOP! Have to hunt the old guy down to display with the new.


HEAD HUNTING Sarumon Tribe.

Gargamel "seems" like they were making their figures for the love of the toys and to put it into the hands of new collectors that may otherwise have never even known about the characters, just guessing that based on how they released theirs as opposed to how this came to be. There is a lot of people here that like toys, but like hype and money more, since the boards were combined it has become a little more obvious, killer j to me has always stuck out as someone into the two latter things. Still doesn't top the kingx3 of everything that sucks about this hobby.

I don't like this figure because customs suck, and this toy is founded on being customized. I have seen many collections of people that "hate customs" but have them in the mix, my personal collection is 100% custom free. I did want to buy the Spooky Parade custom of this toy that got slaughtered, but couldn't justify the retail cost of this fugly ass figure and got to see it going from an amazingly horrid custom to a slick stylized ever worse custom, still hurts to think about hahahaha.

Hukkokudo makes the coolest re-issued toys hands down and doesn't front about it, but they are kind of easy to get, not uber limited, nobody slaps their paint all over their pieces and no cool kids with fixies hype the fuck out of them so who gives a shit though.

But my overall question is really just without ASSUMING these things about money/hype/etc. and going on the cold and factual basis of what is being done, without any thought of the politics of all this: what's the difference? Most answers are still very "opinion" based at this point. Again, I don't really care either way, I'm not defending or attempting to offend, just converse about it all. I think it's interesting, the reactions to it.

Well when you strip it all down and pretend you know nothing about killer j or gargamel or how they released things and just saw the figures and somehow knew about the originals, nothing.

I find the Mighty/Maity/Mightin cycle fascinating. Please correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

1) Originally a character and illustration in some DIY manga in the '70s. "Donut" shape body.
2) Bootleg toy in the 1970s (IKB?) ... donut shape gone, replaced with a more standard post-Godzilla upright lizard sort of body and only two hands.
3) Re-interpreted by Gargamel as a cleaner, smaller, cuter version of the '70s bootleg.
4) Reissue by Hukkokudo of the '70s boot using original mold.
5) New full size and mini figures by Siccaluna that return the monster to its original manga form.

I probably got the chronological order of 4) and 5) reversed ... point being that only Siccaluna was really true to the original inspiration, and that Gargamel's version was unique for being a re-interpretation of a mis-interpretation.

I don't know how the concept of public domain works in Japanese copyright law, but if it's anything like the 70-year rule in the USA, none of the creatures being discussed in this thread is old enough to be in the public domain yet. Also, as regards any Toho properties, I suspect that rules might be bent as they were for Disney when the copyright on Mickey Mouse was extended ... because they're Toho.

so many of the paint apps on these things is fucking hideous. i'm honestly having trouble right now thinking of one that has looked decent

oh, the rumble monsters version that started this thread. that's one

And Joel's recently posted Voodoo - come on, you can't be hating on that.

the one above with the shrunken head?

Yeah - it's so over the top, I don't even think of it as a Sarumon.

yeah, not so much