I'm going to respectfully address the above three comments a someone who works as a researcher in a perception lab.

Yes, Gruin and kaiju look alike to me. Gruin is kaiju inspired and I've held a Paul Kajiu elephant pig monster and don't see much difference. But the reason isn't because of the level of work. I'm sure the Gruin guy could be great if he sticks with it.

The reason is because I'm unfamiliar and don't know what I'm looking for. It's like I like punk and can discern good punk from bad, but to an outsider it's all noise.

In order to actually perceive something, you need to be primed to perceive it and you need previous knowledge of it. I guarantee you the moment you saw your first kaiju figure you didn't understand it with the amount of complexity you do now. Now you are all experts and know what to look for. I'm not, still an outsider with a curiosity of the art. But I don't know what to look for and I don't get why people like it. It doesn't mean I don't respect that people do. In fact, I've spent hours looking through the collections posted here. I find it all rather fascinating and some of the newer soft vinyl pieces are beautiful pieces of art. One sculpt I really like is the "Dustman" as it has great character.

I wish my best for mr. Gruin. It's a good learning experience to have a failure. Never argue against your critics. Be gracious they have you some time. Make art for yourself and if people want to buy it, great. I think kickstarter is a good vehicle for big name products from established creators.

Okay, fine, I can understand that - it might not be everyone's cup of tea - but then what are you doing here even? If you don't understand the craftsmanship of the toys this board is set up to appreciate, don't see any difference between them, and don't care for them, that is just dandy, but that is what Skullbrain is about.

Anatomically horrible? What does that even mean? Most of these toys are based from characters of actors in rubber suits and lycra costumes - what kind of anatomy are you looking for? That is what it is. Is having a skull/tattoo/spike on a toy anatomically correct? You can not understand it, which is perfectly acceptable, but then you can't go and criticise it. Saying every monster is the same is akin to saying every robot is identical.

The fact that you said you were waiting for that post since you joined SB, in all of 2013, just tells me you are looking in the wrong place.

Steve, you and Moonbeams must have been typing at the same time, as he kind of answers that. Just like when I first got here I didn't get all the fight figures, even though I used to collect Food Fighters as a kid it didn't really prepare me for Secret Base etc.

Well, just to be clear, I am not trying to attack anyone's ignorance or lack of interest in this little hobby of ours. Everyone is different and we all like different things and become interested and research diverse areas. What I am just confused by, is, even with all the different areas of the board - and there really is about something for everybody - it all stems from the original love of vinyl toys of Japanese monsters and heroes.

In the same way in which I don't know why someone would go to a Star Wars forum and claim they didn't 'get' sci-fi, or a Bava forum and say they don't understand horror, this is really what the focus of the board is. Asking for help or explanations is one thing, but just coming out there and calling it all the same - or worse, horrible - is not really conducive to positive board discussion.

And what I mean is that, you have been a member of the board for eight months now, and you are waiting for someone to call out kaiju as being all the same or not their thing? Just seems like you are coming from completely the wrong expectations. I am not trying to target you personally (or anyone), just suggesting that you might be disappointed in the board content for the wrong reasons, if that is the way you feel.

It's not as complicated as all that. One of the big reasons this place is so amazing isn't because a few people are experts on everything. It's because lots of people are experts on just one or two things. So as a whole there really isn't anything these guys don't know. That being said there is no specific thing to look for. "Kaiju" is such a broad term and this place even goes way beyond that as well. You look for what you like. Then you do research and learn more about it.

For example like someone just said most of this stuff is based on guys in rubber/latex suits. That was a huge factor in how things looked because monsters had to be able to fight in whatever show or movie was being made. No CG stuff at all so everything had to be functional. That played a huge role in everything and it's something that people pay homage to even right now when they make new toys. Lots of the most well-known vinyl makers today play to that same vibe. In part out of respect and also because it's what they grew up enjoying. Sometimes it's as simple as a crazy kaiju thing with human legs and simple boots. Or it can be just a hint with something like an outlandish creature with a tiny zipper pull on it's back. So that is one thing to look for when you first see a vinyl piece. And that is just one thing on one type of toy here. There are countless other kinds of vinyl toys that pay homage to countless other things

One last thing I'd like to mention is that anatomy is easy. Take classes and study and work at it and anyone can do anatomical sculpts/designs in their sleep. It's like math. Taking anatomy and rearranging it in a way that makes sense and looks appealing is incredibly difficult. You can't break those rules and get away with it unless you truly know them first. So while you may see something and think the anatomy sucks others can see the same thing and be in awe at how well it was deformed and twisted. I can sculpt a anatomically correct skull with my eyes closed. I couldn't sculpt a disfigured pushead skull with a gun to my head. Sometimes simplifying things is so complicated it's hard to even comprehend how some of the artists here pull it off.

I actually get this. I've thought about this same thing regarding many things, some people can even tell apart different types of drinking water, other people wouldn't think of wasting their time on that.
Most people that I know don't like kaiju... or get it. But I think many good points have been made, regarding why even being here.
And what I really dont get is thinking that Balzac toys don't all look the same.



And the regarding the toy being discussed here, I think work and tenacity might get you somewhere. Knowledge from the suggestions and critiques made by the more experienced is priceless.

If someone needs a toy 'explaining' they probably shouldn't be buying it!

Digging for info is all part of the game. Just stick to what you dig if you are unwilling to do your homework.

You're almost there really, you just don't realize it. Take your interest in Balzac toys. You show that to your average guy on the street and they wont get it like you don't get Kaiju. You get it because you know the history and culture behind it. You know why the anatomically deformed character has a bag over it's head etc. If you really want to get it, start at the source, Japan. learn the pop culture that created the monsters, robots and superheroes. Watch the films and old TV shows and maybe in a couple of years you'll begin to understand.

Well, I came here initially looking for people who were selling Balzac stuff. It's the kaiju genre itself that I personally don't get the appeal for. Nothing against it. But I'm very curious to see what drives interest in it, so I found Robert's post to be very helpful. I love Japan and am deeply connected to the country. So it's also interesting to see this underground community for foreigners with hardcore interests in something that is underground in Japan.



By "anatomically horrible" I mean this:

I'm not into monster movies. I think that's why I "don't get it." I'm really into Balzac and ignored their toys for the past decade. Last year I returned to the US from Japan and started really missing Japan. So I started actually collecting Balzac stuff (when I lived there it was so easy to come by that I never tried to collect, and stuff would come in and out of my music collection) and I picked up a Skullman it was all downhill from there.

I'm not waiting for anyone to call out kaiju. I meant that I've been searching through threads trying to find what people find appealing about this:
I guess if I grew up a fan of the show, I would be into it as well.

I like art and some of the figures I see here are very creative and expressive. I like the Balzac stuff because it is a physical extension of the music.

Wow, I really appreciate this insight. It might seem like common sense here, but as a total outsider, I would never have guessed that about the suits and modern stuff paying homage to the suits. Now I'll know what to look for.

I'm not good at communication (in the doghouse tonight), so I hope this isn't mistook as being snarky or anything. I really appreciate this post.

I think they look the same. They all have the same face, and each part of a series is caste from the same mold. Still like them.

i'm always amazed to see some one sculpting with this feet i think you should work on the shape a little bit before post any pics.....

Wow... This thread got wonky quick! I just did not see this as a destination when I started reading it. I have lurked here forever, but I am trying to take a more active hand in this community. You guys are all so damn knowledgeable it can be a bit intimidating.... And then to see people pop up and say some really, surprisingly, shockingly not-so-knowledgable things... Well, wow again I guess.
I had planned on ranting about the statement that one would claim to be a punk fan, and in fact be able to tell good punk from bad, but then going on to champion Balzac... But then as I was typing and fuming the real weird thing hit me, Columbo style;
That one would use employment as a 'perception researcher' as proof of ones superior aesthetic sense. And that despite the fact that this community was quite literally formed to celebrate this particular art form, that with enough digging, evidence could be found to prove how truly fucked up kaiju really are. That time was admittedly spent searching for other like minded individuals. That is god damn weird. Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't research into perception show you that each person perceives in an entirely individual way? Except maybe in communities built to celebrate a certain aesthetic sensibility...

Point 2, a more brief point, I shall use my training and daily work as an artist to tell you this... The proportions on the figure you posted... They are not horrible. It is called stylized. Despite not being the natural proportions of a human, they are quite harmonious. I would expect a fan of figures with giant heads, lanky arms and teeny little legs to know this.

Point 3, I would very much like to go back to the original thought of this thread. I am planning on doing my very own figure(s). I am starting work on it now. There will be no kickstarter. It will be a process involving my own blood, sweat, tears and money. And if it fails, that will be mine also. Some of you indicated experience in production. I would love some pointers on how to go about getting something made and rough costs to be expected. I do not expect anyone to break every facet it down for me, just point me in a direction where I won't get ripped off. Factory production is a long way off... I will be going about this the opposite way of the OP... I will be using short run resin, and custom one offs to build capital for an eventual true production run... And no sculptures will see daylight until they are ready. And just to be clear that I am not taking a more active role at SB in order to promote this project, it is not kaiju (or *shiver* urban vinyl) related.

Please quote me so I know what you are talking about. I didn't mean to attack, insult, or show any disrespect to the medium or fans. I thought I was asking an innocent question. Nor did I claim to have a "superior sense of aesthetics." That would be an asinine thing to say and completely alien to whom I am as a person.

Looking back, "horrible anatomy" was not a good choice of words. I was referring to figures that were made to be mass produced cheaply when the technology was relevantly new. This is the style I had in mind:


I wasn't saying that everything is horrible. I either miscommunicated my post or you're interpreting it out of context.

(I do like to be silly in my posts, but I don't think I was being silly here. It seems like people like to get an idea of someone and lump them into a category based off a few posts).

I am sorry to keep going on about this, but I still don't get what your beef is. If you don't like these toys or the characters, fine, but to come here and saying how ridiculous toys made by companies like Bullmark and Bandai are is really bizarre. These are some of the biggest and most storied of toy manufacturers, and I think they probably know a thing or two. Furthermore, these are not also not produced cheaply at all. I am not really sure what you are talking about in terms of these toys. The quality is outstanding, and whatever you may think of the way they look, they have held up and are loved after four decades.

And in terms of the figures themselves, I don't know what you are expecting either. These are rubber costumes, you get that part right. Here is the figure from the show,



And here are two other representations of him in toy form,


Do they all look exactly the same? No, of course not. That would be incredibly boring. And do they exactly look like a human in the show would? No, of course not - they are toys; but it is pretty damn close. If you want realism, look to model kits or scale figures. There are lots of other things which have incredible detail or can match up to whatever level of anatomical scrutiny you might be after. Stuff that goes in display cases and on shelves; not necessarily toys. These are meant for kids to play with, and designed that way. In that way they exactly match what one would expect. Weird proportions are things like SD figures or the odd large-eyed dolls that are all the rage now. These are about as normal as one would expect I think from an 'action figure.'

If these are not your aesthetic, that is just fine. There are plenty other areas on SB you can find stuff you might like. Something for everybody, in terms of design, characters, and materials. The variety is what makes this place such a great community to be a part of. But you can't come here and claim something about these toys is wrong or that the makers don't know what they are doing. They have decades of experience (and happy children and collectors) behind them. There is just no argument to be made there, and if there is/was, it is generally irrelevant to the forum, since some people here do like them.

Like I was saying before, you don't have to be a fan of these necessarily, and everyone likes their own thing, but you should accept that it is part of what the toy forum is about.

I think you misunderstand what I have written.

I am not attacking the art. I will be careful with these words so there is no longer any miscommunication.

The picture I posted, is what I believe to be have been an early figure in toy making, which I chose because it exemplifies distorted anatomy. Similar distorted anatomy is purposely made in some of the modern soft vinyl figures posted on this board. As an outsider, I wondered what appealed to collectors about these figures, so I asked my question.

It was very interesting to learn that toys are made this way as a sort of homage to their predecessors that were designed to emulate a human in a rubber suit. I was satisfied with that answer. The backlash this question is receiving is astonishing me. Is it wrong not to understand why people like something and then ask why?

Again, I must reiterate, I meant absolutely no disrespect to the artform, collectors, or artists. I apologize for my rough language.

Here is my original post, for contextual purposes:


I've already posted a few examples of vintage pieces that I think are anatomically bad. I did not realize that they were modeled after people in rubber suits. With the line "'m critical of the anatomy, but I find it no different than the vintage Japanese stuff people collect which is pretty anatomically horrible in general" I meant to say to the creator, "Although it doesn't appeal to me, I don't see much of a difference between this and the other stuff you like, so good job!"

It seems that people are offended that I don't get Kaiju?

Probably more perplexed why you're highlighting your lack of appreciation or respect for the majorities opinions on a kaiju orientated forum and expecting a positive response!

There was a real similar thread over on KR a few years back . . . you might be better suited 'over there'.

As a polite aside . . . I'd probably stop typing now!

Where did I say I disrespect anything? Is this a prank on me?

I see, you are saying that I should stop typing. I'm about done with this conversation, but it stinks rotten, though.

All I did was voice an opinion, ask a question, and try to praise someone's effort.

My words, which are plain as daylight and re-quoted above, have been interpreted by some as an attack on this artform. I try to explain that there is no attack. I am not expecting any positive reactions, just neutral conversation.

You have made no secret your animosity towards me here and at the Balzac forum this past week. Personally, I find that a let down. We don't even know each other and I always admired your collection and posts. Why not get to know someone first before making attacks? The only reason why I'm typing is that I feel offended when someone 1) puts words in my mouth that are not true and 2) tells me to shut up about it.

That said, I'm done. Think what you will.

if only.

I think Brian briefly explains the esthetics of Sofubi toys here that made sense to me. It's about a minute in. I hope it's helps a bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgsQiBwCOIY&list=PLXGF0gJEot0trYs4iNc9oWMYaypYPCT88

I have just read through the shit storm going on here and i honestly think its a bit unconstructive, to say the least.

I just thought i'd give me opinion on the figure I really love toys, anything from the classic lines such as MOTU, TMNT, Toxic Avengers to Cure Boogie Men, Balzac toys, Rangeas and all that.
Im not gonna call myself an expert on designing toys - i have only been doing a few figures over the last year. But i have been working on different stop motion films (for a danish flm company) and the one figure i actually got produced (In rather limited numbers) sold pretty fast.
I still stand behind that design 100% - its called Mutant Steve for my (slowly growing) series of figures called Mutant Bastards.
I'm not trying to come here saying im an expert or that im an authority. I think people who have been into collecting toys for a long time, have much more knowledge and better grounded oppnions than most people within the business, because they study toys every day.

Well.. I must say, I really think its a weak design - it doesn't stand out from anything at all. It could be a (most forgettable) bad guy from the Powers Rangers TV series, poorly executed. I really miss som character, some details... some sort of story to it. If i found this in a store, i wouldn't notice it at all. And i know, that these characters are often very simple in the design - but this just doesnt do anything for me.
I like it when characters have some sort of theme, like the eye-monster from Power Rangers, Mutagen Man (with the guts floating inside), Elegab's Tonneran (with the road theme).. and if you don't want to do a theme, at least do an excellent design like Cure Boogie-Men, Rangeas and stuff like that. I really think you should research you favorite characters and don't hesitate to steal ideas, as long as you work on them and make them your own (My character Mutant Steve, is HEAVILY inspired by Mutagen Man). Do a gazillion sketches and studies on your character and BAM it'll come.


I think its great that you want to do you own toy! I really do, i takes guts - but give it a bit more time and work. Also, i would suck to put a lot of money, time and effort into something that you couldn't sell.

I don't hope i sound patronizing, thats not my intention. English is only my second language (Im from Denmark) - and again, this is just my opnion!!

Oh, heres is picture of Mutant Steve, by the way (Sorry about the shameless plug). I realize it havent got much to do with sofubi, but i think it backs up my point OK:



If you wan't some help or feeback on designs, i'd be happy to help!

that clear head w/ brain was a stroke of toy design genius!