I got a message yesterday from a person in this world that is a buyer and a seller. They do not post here but they read that thread about the guy that was first in line for the black kaws toy but didn't get it.
http://www.skullbrain.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=7385

They asked me to post this message after few back and forth emails we had. There is some interesting points in here and some personal opinions based on years of interest in collectible goods. Take a read and let me know what you think.

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state of the union 2007
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Have you ever stood in a queue, and heard someone else waiting in this
line ask "What is it that we are all waiting for?" Seems absurd, but
there are plenty of tales to be told from queing up, that make really,
no sense at all.

Recently an individual wrote of their dissatisfaction of being first
in line and not walking away with the prize. The days of being queued
up first, first to get the gold might be over......

Medicom Toy announced before the sale of the Kaws Black Dissected
Companion, that they would enforce the age limit like it says on the
box. Why it took them so long to do this, is anyone's guess, but
you might be asking why, at all? Let's face it if you're a collector,
or interested in any of the current crop of "HOT" items, you must be
thinking of it's value and how much it is worth....to resale...now or
later.

Offensive tone, I know and go ahead and get on the defensive and say
it's not your plan. And while we should give you the benefit of the
doubt, what about those people who show up at a limited sale with
their entire family? Sure they are all collectors, right? It never
bugs you...right again? But what about those families with 2 babies
still in strollers, buying up those limited items that should be
yours. How could they possibly be collectors, when they can't even
speak. Sure, I know, your first words were 'Godzilla gimme', when you
were 15 months old. Or what about the person who recruits five of
their friends to stand in line with them, at a chance to get one or 6
of the so called limited items. Don't tell me you've never done it.

Put that into the perspective that some shady types in Japan have
taken up the practise of hiring homeless people to wait in lines to
secure items first.....not just for toys, but any type of collectible
street underground item that is traded at a higher price via the
internet. Is it fair? Or is it just a strategy that they learned from
you, the collector?

The folks at the San Diego Comic Convention decided because of line
problems, and that magical word
'complaints', that you needed to partake in a raffle to be able to get
a companies, quote end quote "limited item". A powerhouse company
would then stamp or punch your badge to verify you already received a
raffle ticket for each day. Now don't tell me that you lined up all of
your friends passes in your efforts to get one? That wasn't you,
right? Then in 2006, some companies decided to offer SDCC exclusives,
if you bought it off their website first, but had to pick it up at the
event.....bypassing the whole line / raffle / complaint / live in your
face aspect of the show. How exclusive is that?

Somewhere, there is an innocent person who really just wants the item,
and cannot get such. Out of frustration, and not on their first try,
they complain to the company about it. But when they get to the office
to make their complaint, they need to stand in line with the other
complainers....let's see the dealers, the flippers, the golddiggers,
oh and the true collectors, all who want the item for their own
purposes. Which legally they all have a right to do with it as they
may. That is what everyone seems to forget. Fair?

Simply put, all the above mentioned people read the information on
Skullbrain.org in a quest for their own gains, whatever it might be.
Plus, those who consume the information to create another toy figure
trend and promote it as such, to this unsuspecting audience, who
mistakenly feel they are one of 'them'.
The positive purposes do have negative side effects. The book is open
to the public.

So, it doesn't matter what silly games, the posters play. The 'oh, I
don't want that', to the 'It's too hyped and overpriced, I'm outta
here', to the 'let's start a poll to see who does or doesn't', or the
'It's not going to be HOT (but I'm gonna buy it)'. Because anyone
reading will see through it, when everyone has listed their
information for the public to see, as well as their bidding habits.
AND every single dealer knows what you want and what you will
pay....with just a little bit of research. Private? Sure, it all comes
out when you see the lines for a certain item....and oh, there's
Skullbrain collector king #1, and Didlysquat collector king #2, etc
etc. (celebrities have special purchasing agents or have made tight
with the boss to get their scores).

With that kind of power, ques get longer and frustration gets redder.
So, when the manufacturer takes the brunt of the complaints because of
simple economic supply and demand, they are forced to make
changes to make the customer, and that is all of you, happy. Still,
someone out there is screaming in unhappy bliss. Not everyone can
be...it's the law of the jungle. Skullbrain.org decided today that
this new limited item which was the hottest item 2 days ago, is now
not worthy of their time. Stocks crash. Black Friday.

Back to the queued first for a Kaws Black Dissected Companion. There's
another question here, why if it is an Original Fake exclusive (if it
isn't, why is there a store then?) is it being sent out to a set
number of dealers....who can select their own retail price, but are
buying it at a set wholesale price? (These orders are made in
advance...) Especially after they see the going rate on the internet
auction sites, they can dictate their own price. Someone might say,
this is being fair, as it gives a worldwide market a chance to get
this item, but being fair to whom? It opens the door for the same set
of consumers to purchase it, even those who already have one...or
sorry, sold theirs.

How many of you started out as collectors, then sold a few items off
to support your collection, then actually sold everything, and just
became a dealer. Oh ok, a little collection on the side. There are a
lot of fingers being pointed at what others are doing, so and so is a
flipper, but the person making this claim, 3 days later makes a great
score and is willing to trade for a higher ticket item, and no one is
screaming 'flipper' at them (wasn't this great score the item you were
outbid on at the last minute by someone you never heard of?). Damn,
that was you, wasn't it? The illusion that you're the only one is
shattered. You're exiting as we speak, off to another trend, not
polluted by all this corruption. Wasn't this supposed to be fun?

The question is....how can you stop all of this from destroying what
you love? It seems easier to bail than to fix or even understand the
situation. Remember it was you, and your desires that fueled this fire
anyway. The internet has made information and access to limited items
easier than ever, and with that comes even more frustration.
Expectations are high, and this week's model is replaced by the next
newest ....even more limited.....thing, like a snake eating itself.
Yet, trust me, no one will stop. The names and items might change, but
the scenarios won't. It's happened before and it will happen
again....and again.

The excitement builds once again.......
This was written by you. You emailed it to yourself anonymously....you
just never thought you'd make the mistake of CC'ing it to SKullbrain

I think I understand what this person, and honestly I think it's taking the easy way out...so ALL collectors are "flippers" to some extent? We ALL exploit various systems to get what we want...to some extent this is of course true, but like many complex subjects, you can either look for shades of gray or call things black and white. This person has chosen the latter. All people are selfish to some extent, and thus we cannot ever cry foul over the sale of "collectible" items.

If you choose the take the "harder" course and choose to look for "shades of gray" as I do, I think some things are clear while others aren't. But it seems pretty obvious to me that some people are passionate "collectors" while others are much more interested in making a profit by reselling. The guy who put in the effort to be first in line at OF should have been rewarded with the toy. "Flippers" bringing children in baby strollers to procure limited items may be a "necessary evil" but it's still an "evil"...at least to some extent. Of course I have bought more than a few items from known "flippers" so I can't complain too loudly!

But still, just because I make a good trade with a friend or ask someone to pick up an item for me at a show I can't get to, does not mean I forfeit the right to ever complain again about unsavory business practices in this industry. It's a tough and interesting question and part of what makes this hobby fascinating...but to overgeneralize and throw everyone in the same boat seems unfair...and besides, then we'd have nothing to talk and fight about over the internet.

I read the whole thing, and it's all so complex and convoluted and I really don't think it even applies to the stuff that I buy. So how do I feel about it? Happy for me, and sad for the people who are caught up in what should be simple transactions.

There is a bright side, though. You can always quit.

(Hey, Ramos, I have a set of Satan Beetles for you if you're interested. PM me.)

Interesting thoughts. And I can't say that they're untrue.

Back in the summer of 2006, Hasbro offered an SDCC exclusive Transformer on its company store website, to be released at 8 a.m. I waited up for it, as did literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of other collectors. The time came and... the website shut down from all the requests. Some had the clever idea of calling in with a phone order; some orders were taken, others were told to get lost. Eventually Hasbro responded with conflicting messages, and wouldn't you know it, the people who phoned in an order for a web exclusive release got their figure, while the rest of us who played by the rules got jacked. This was a $25 figure, and it was quickly flipped for almost 3-4 times that.

And boy was that a shitstorm on the Transformer forums. And probably at Hasbro customer support, too.

I think the real point, which has been made here in the past, is that the super exclusive limited toys are still just toys. There's a difference between disappointment at missing a buy and unhappiness. Don't collect toys or chase rare figures if it makes you unhappy.

I also hear a lot about the Intarweb feeding the frenzy. And I think, so what? It wasn't so long ago that Japanese toys were virtually inaccessible, and then only at hugely inflated prices. I'd rather be able to find the toy, period, and accept the couple of guys that are out solely to get their chunk of change.

The crux of this arguement comes from the statement "Let's face it if you're a collector, or interested in any of the current crop of "HOT" items, you must be thinking of it's value and how much it is worth....to resale...now or later." There are some that fit this category, but there are alot of us on the board that are not. I have traded and bought on this board many times without being raped. One of the reasons I was attracted to this board was the concept of "RFSO". I find the tautology of the post annoying (which, I am sure, was the author's intention, though he probably meant it in a 'gadfly' way.)

He really needed to type all of that to point out things that have been obvious in this scene for a long time?. Then as a slap in the face to the board members here he asks for it to be posted yet doesn't have the balls to post it himself?...why is this person too "elite" in the collector world?. I love his assumptions about what we have all done and not done. Pretty weak imo.

i'm really not sure why this seems to be addressed to all collectors or people on this board... how many posters actually spend time bitching on those threads?

i'm sick and tired of the tirades and the anti-tirades etc etc etc.

it never ends, from those who have never been there, to those who have been there too long.

i don't really understand the point of this person's argument. it just ends with basically saying that we're destroying ourselves by posting on the board.

That's the jist of it. That basically by congregating and discussing the objects of your affections you've written the script for your own demise and set it out in public.

(And I'm guessing that the author is from Britain, Australia, or New Zealand.)

It is what it is, simple as that. I think his comments lumping everybody here as having the same mentality is pure bullshit though. It takes all kinds to make the world go round Good Guy Eddies and Evil Flippers alike. Does the writer think this board operates different than the real world and he/she is telling us something we don't know?

It is wot it is and wot it is is somebody full of themself. It's easy to pontificate when you remain faceless. IMHO


Collect toys for the fun of it and be happy with what you have. Other option have their pitfalls, but that's the chance they take.

he never addressed the issue of the guy who was first on line and never got to purchase the item

once in awhile i like browsing "older" threads (older as in... maybe a year ago) when most people posting on the board didn't even know a damage brain existed. i also like it when someone posts something like a handpainted skullwing hardly anyone has seen before.

I don't see what's wrong with creating hype by talking about what you like...i mean, if you generate enough hype, that means more shit you like will come out in the future, right? $$$$$$$$$

Has to be New Zealand...batards over there...

I can't even see the real agruement this person is making.
Individually, as toy colectors, we have our ups and downs. Most of us at one point have missed a bid, emailed a store too late, got in the line too late, whatever.

The way I see it, toy collecting is an aesthetic, just like an art collector, trends come and go as well as styles and we are fed by what the market/artist provided for us and we change, bail, sell or stick around.

I see that lash out at the flippers but to be honest, It sort of just comes with the territory, I can't blame anyone for the fact that if they have a surplus of cash and drop down 4 times what a toy cost 2 days ago, lucky them, sucks for some others. Its just how it is, camplaining doesn't do much good.

The post really looks like someone has had an unlucky streak, could be wrong, but if they can put down for a Kaws companion, or half of the items I see here they are in better shape monitarity then some of us, should I complain?

So I find pleasure in the hunt, doing customs, enjoying what little I get, and the view of others collections. And most of all, interacting with fellow fans which mostly are atleast a 4 hour flight away.

As individuals, and not a community we have to draw our own lines for ourseleves and not play into the 'sour grapes' dialogue if that is the case.

Sucks sometimes, but thats life for collectors, and if you really don't like how toys are sold or distributed, you can always open your own shop and design your own toys.

I think it's trying to put up a "Man in the Mirror" argument, which can be worthwhile since we do need to realistically assess what we're doing from time to time. At the same time, the big "take home message" is a little confusing. What are we meant to walk away thinking? That all is gloom and doom, so we should throw our hands up and walk away? That the nature of the collecting beast is too vicious so we should get out before we find ourselves in its belly?

As was posted in a thread in the Whatever section, a lot of people's collections are full of the current "Hot" pieces. Many people want to Be like Mike, right? Then there's major dumpage when the shine is off and the fast money moves to the next hot item. I think that's another valid idea that merits consideration. People who collect "unpopular" figures sure do get their share of slack here from the "in crowd". Which I suppose is fine because it does help beat back the artificial demand beast.

And that's the crux of all of this and the source of a lot of angst. Artificial demand. Many factory made figures (such as KAWS pieces) are intentionally made in super small quantities to coke collector hype and create an impression of scarcity. Of course even though they're made in 5 or 6 separate colorways, the illusion of scarcity is maintained, even though all you're looking at is the same piece of plastic with a different set of colors applied by a factory worker somewhere. Enter all sorts of issues generated by that sense of scarcity. Enter collector fever. Enter the homeless flipper. Enter the flipper/collector. And so on.

So we know and see the beast before us. It's up to each collector to decide what to do about that. The important thing is understanding the mechanics of the industry. What each person does after that is his/her own business.

In terms of kaiju, a lot of figures are scarce because they're hand painted, which can take a very long time for each figure. But the scarcity monster emerges again, and that's going to be exploited by flippers, and it's going to fuel the "limited edition" fervor, etc. And so the cycle repeats.

So it is a complex issue, which can be hard to unravel. But I do think it's valid to give consideration to the what's and why's of all this. We spend a lot of time and money collecting. Thinking through these issues and then going about our collecting in a more "conscious" manner is certainly better than going forward in a stupor, feeding a set of companies and designers the bulk of our disposable income simply out of habit, to have the "best" collection, or to Be Like Mike.

I think we've all been there (to some degree) at some point in our collecting lives. When that happens, we abrogate our personal power and become nothing more than bottom feeding ATM machines for companies, flippers, and everyone else in the food chain.

As I've said before, for me the experiences that come with collecting are key, and collecting is an avenue for exploration and expansion, and not just a means to amass more material possessions. Collecting can be frustrating, sure, but I try to keep that in perspective and maintain focus on what's really important at the end of the day. Beyond having a nice collection, the people I get to know, the experiences I have, and the places I visit while collecting really make it all worthwhile.

oh man, I'm scared. not because of the commentary but because I don't know what that person's point was.

It's a complaint about complainers. The irony is just too rich for me.

Blood and Souls for Lord Arioch!!!

Why worry about something we can't control?

I liked the last paragraph!

Seems like the same old questions & no answers to me though.

And who IS this person who 'doesn't post here'
but 'asked you to post this message'?

I think without a flip (with in reason) the TRUE collectors in the USA won't be able to get some GREAT items they truely CRAVE/WANT/NEED!!

So in order to stop a flip allow online ordering worldwide?

I talked to the man that runs OriginalFake before and we both laughed as the old, dirty, toothless, uh homeless men come out with "their" figures.
Come on give me a break.

Checking ID's stops the babies in strollers and I don't know maybe homeless people as well (since I'm assuming they don't have ID). I don't know how OF handles that one?

I just think if you are a collector and put the time, effort and money in you should get one. If you turn around and trade it for something you want more so be it. That is part of a trade. Isn't everyone happy in a trade or else there wouldn't be one.

I agree with LD.
I too LIVE in Japan, and even I need flippers sometimes.
As long as I've been collecting it's been normal for dealers to
ask up to 2x what they paid for something in the aftermarket ...
and sometimes they deserve it.
They slept out all nite to save me the trouble!
It rankles when they pay 5000 for an item
then turn round and ask 20+ for it though,
or they grab 3 or 4 of an item at the true collector's expense.
Some of them are getting greedy.
And to this extent Ramos' anonymous correspondent is right -
the US market has inflated this problem.

Online ordering worldwide IS allowed (copyrights permitting)
as far as I know.
But a lot of Japanese don't speak English,
or don't have enough confidence in their ability, to do it.
And YJA's system (which is different to Evilbay's)
doesn't make it easy for sellers to deal directly with foreign orders.
(Also ... Hey! This IS Japan! How many of us can speak/write fluent Nihongo?
I know I can't!)

Pretty sure too that even the homeless here must have SOME kind of ID.
And as Ramos pointed out before, the homeless here
present themselves very well.
I caught my reflection at the last WCC and to be honest
I looked worse than they did!
So how can the sellers tell?

The only answer as far as I can see would be to KILL EVERYONE!!!

KILL! MAIM! MUTILATE! MURDER!


(That Fugu's daughter is pretty cute though ... )

I been collecting this shit (UK, Western, JPN . . .whatever) for the last 8 years or so and it's always been the same! C'est l'vie!

Wow that article was so postmodern.........................................................
What was his point??
oh right , I forgot
There wasn't one.
What a waste of two mins