Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?

Discussion in 'Whatever' started by animator, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. noeleaser

    noeleaser Toy Prince

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I saw those Kumons too, considering I just picked mine up for half of that, I was a bit shocked. They had a Hyper Kraken for $1500 as well. I don’t know if it was a one off but that’s seemed very high to me.

    Their booth had some dope shit this year and last but those prices kept me from copping anything..
     
  2. badteethcomics

    badteethcomics Line of Credit

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    So who are these people? I'm planning on selling a bunch of stuff soon but I don't want toys im already struggling to let go of land in the hands of someone who's going to flip things for profit.
     
  3. bryce_r

    bryce_r Die-Cast

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Scanned the comments but it's completely ignorant to assume that "EVERYONE has done it". There are at least twenty or more people on this board who I have purchased toys from at retail cost..even after the hyped fact.
    I've sold for what I paid/sold for a loss but I have had several transactions with members who have sold for retail regardless.There are a dedicated few toy collectors on this board who are PATIENT as fuck and wait out the hype storms and tend to get toys at reasonable prices because they ignore the noise. I'm not one of them but wish I was. I had to see 3/4's of my collection for school and STILL tried to snag things when I shouldn't have. Hence my current impulse sales.
     
  4. eckotyper

    eckotyper Side Dealer

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I say everyone because i feel everyone has made a profit at some point. Not calling them blatant flippers, but if you have been in this long, i think you have lost/gained/ and leveled out on transactions.
     
  5. ultrakaiju

    ultrakaiju Die-Cast Staff Member

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    A couple things. Firstly, is there a reason behind all this secrecy? Honest question. I was not a D-Con, not am I in any way part of the "in" crowds that circulate cool toys, so forgive my ignorance. If they are getting a 'pass' though, and feel this is normal sales behaviour, then why the pretense?

    Secondly, but probably most importantly, I do not condone flipping in any sense, no matter the person doing it, or the circumstances behind it. But, there is a difference that we have to consider here between aftermarket pricing and flipping, they are not the same thing. This is a collectable market, and, whether 'new' or not, any collectable that is bought and re-sold within that context is - likely - going to have some associated value with it beyond its simple original retail pricing. Records, comics, books, stamps, actions figures, baseball cards, china....whatever. By definition (if you will), these items have a specific market that assigns - albeit arbitrary - value to these items, by nature of there existing a specific niche market of buyers, i.e. 'collectors.' And inherently, the price assigned via this market will not be set based on retail, it can be more or less. This is why there are things like price guides, valuers, etc. So. When we are looking at these silly toys, it is no different. Prices might be more or less reflective of their retail pricing, but this is hardly a rule by any standards, but more of a coincidence in most cases. I would be over the moon to be offered a removable mask Ultraman Father figure for 450yen, or buy some packaged Kenner SW figures for 1.99. And at the same time, you will regularly see toys from M1-Go and B-Club sit around the BST for 15$, a far cry (drop, for those that don't get it) from their retail price. It may be sad sometimes, but that is the way of any free market system. And equally, when we add in the hype around popular 'art' toys, this is just taken to the extreme. So, is selling something at normal market value flipping? Well, I have sold M1 toys for 10 or 15$ so, I guess I must be. And yeah, I have also sold vintage Bullmark and Popy minis for 10 or 15$, which is a lot more than they cost back in the day. Different story? Maybe. |Frankly, both of those types of situations were excellent 'deals' by my reckoning, and offered up to fellow appreciating fans on this board, but it is entirely subjective. I am just trying to illustrate that pricing is not immediately based on retail, which is what many are using as a metre stick for flipping. So, while that might not be an immediate parallel to whatever went on at this mystery booth at D-Con, it is an important discussion to be had in any discussion of what constitutes flipping. I think for most modern stuff people who have been around for a while understand the market, as well as know what it is 'right' to sell a toy for. It is that very experience and years of hunting, exchanging, talking, etc., that gives people the knowledgebase in this hobby (as in any one), which is what generally lacks when newbies come roaring in, waving fast cash, and get burnt (or burn out) in a short period. One of the first things I recommend to people just signing up is to spend time reading the many, many pages of Skullbrain which is an unbelievable resource in documenting this hobby, more than anything else available right now I would say. In addition to being a simple forum for exchange, this place has far surpassed its original mandate to become a library of sofubi collecting, and perhaps the best point of reference there is for general information.

    So, with all of that in mind, was what happened at the con flipping? I honestly have no idea, because I don't know what toys they were, what they sold for, what the details were, nor do I care. But let's not suggest that selling a toy for any price other than retail is somehow equatable to flipping.

    IF, however, you somehow feel the need to justify your price, e.g. "I paid xxx for this", then you probably need to stop and reflect on what your reasons on for selling a piece, why you think it is right to ask for whatever the price is, and, if you are all cool with that, than own that shit and be up front on it. Lots of people on here have bought toys from M-World, a service I do not condone or really appreciate the existence of. I get it serves a purpose, but choose not to support it personally. That is a discussion for another time though. But, this is a clearcut case where a business exists, for profit, on the basis of high market demand and limited supply. In other words, flipping. So to buy from a middleman at flipping prices, you are thereby supporting that behaviour, by supporting them. If you then turn around and want to recoup your costs (which, I would say happens a heck of a lot more frequently than people buying at retail, take from that what you will), then that is pretty much in the same vein. \_(ツ)_/¯ I don't think overpricing to you equated to overpricing to everyone else (that being above 'normal' market value). It is not necessarily a sign that the toy is really work bucketloads, but may be just that you got hosed. That happens sometimes, and you might just have to eat the loss, or accept keeping the toy for what you paid; unless of course there are other silly people out there willing to overpay, which we know would never happen in this hobby.

    I think what gazpacho is hard to hear, and I don't completely agree, but certainly the 'community' aspect of this place has changed. There are those on here I still have great relations with ;) and would happily sell (or donate) toys to at next to nothing, simply because I know they will appreciate them. And I will go out of my way to help others as much as I can when the opportunity arises, because they seem like good people and fellow respectable humans and toy fans. That sense might not exist as much as it did on the board 5-10 years ago, alas, but it still is running through some of the undercurrents of this board. I'd like to have met more folks in person, and put some faces to names and long-time PM compadres, but unfortunately that opportunity does not frequently present itself. But regardless, taking off those rose-coloured glasses for a moment, anyone can admit that simply having set up an account here, or spending a few minutes posting occasionally as he rightfully pointed out, does not a community make. But it is what you give to it, or that is what I have always believed.

    Anyways, wall of text over. More to say, but who cares? And what the <bleeping> <bleep> do I know anyhow? I don't collect any valuable toys.



    DISCLAIMER: more walls of text to follow, as I feel so inclined.
     
  6. kichigai

    kichigai Line of Credit

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Damn Steve, wtf coffee are you drinking? Send me some!

    I disagree when you say you don't collect valuable toys. If the toys bring you happiness the value is priceless.

    Certainly you must have a few
     
  7. Anti Social Andy

    Anti Social Andy Die-Cast

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    My bad, you're 100% right . . . not all Chinese are flippers!

    Although these are the same tactics rumoured to be used by the latest wave of collectors/suckers/buyers that happen to hail from that part of the world . . . as all too clearly documented on Instaspam (Yaaaaawn!)
     
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  8. animator

    animator Mr. Freshly Smacked Ass Staff Member

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I'm glad this has started some good debates. Maybe my term "flipper" is inaccurate for some of the toys, but that's besides the point. These people are collectors and friends with many people in this "scene". They're also not just letting go of 1 or 2 toys, as we've heard of several toys mentioned throughout this thread. Some still nib, some a few years old, others very recent.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't be friends either. Friends don't agree on a lot of things. I just think if you are friends, you should be more vocal that you don't like what they're doing. Maybe you'll find out how good of a friend they are.

    I have overspent on a few toys and later tried to sell it for what I paid. A lot of us have, but this is a lot more than 1 or 2 mistakes or regrets.

    Last, I want to remind that this is not a witch hunt. I'm sure if you really want names you can find them. I know this booth had at least 4 people selling at it, and at least 2 of them had good, fair prices.

    I guess my point is to not have double standards. Don't hate someone on ebay, or yahoo, or a person muling for someone you don't know from some far off land if your friend next to you is doing essentially the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  9. The Moog

    The Moog Die-Cast

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Well said, exactly how i look at this hobby too . . . . except the 'less is more' bit.
    I just cram it all in until it looks like a fire hazard :lol:
     
  10. kichigai

    kichigai Line of Credit

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Some posts here seem more oriented in speculative gossip than anything else.

    Other posts seem to be sour grapes.

    Opinions are always mixed but one thing I do know, the guy who got the dolls from Mr. Yoda and flipped them will never have another opportunity to do the same.

    Just so you know if you happen to read this, I am the guy who told on you when you did what you did. Well at least now you have a "real" reason to hate me.

    Some might say it was a dick move, I call it hardcore loyalty and unwavering support. That is what being a fan is to me. Hoping you just soiled your ill fitted shorts pal.

    As a rule of thumb, I never trust folks that keep most if not all their toys in the package. 90% of the time it is these folks who have bought something:

    1. As trade bait
    2. As an investment
    3. That they don't even enjoy
    4. To project a perception of "cool"
    5. Because they a dumb

    My last thought on the subject is a booth at that show is very very expensive and if two of the four mystery folks had good prices

    The cup is half full.
     
  11. JoeMan

    JoeMan Mini Boss

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Sometimes I buy an old toy in a bag and start thinking, this toy has made it 10, 15, 20 years in that bag. It's not for me to unbag it. I enjoy the fact it has aged in package. New toys? Rip it open.
     
  12. Lixx

    Lixx Mr. Grumpy™

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I think something being overlooked here is you can be a fan of these toys and be horrible with money by undervaluing your own collection on some silly whim that you can only sell for retail or less on older harder to find toys. Should you be looking to make massive 500-1000% profits on your toys or buy strictly in a speculative hype way? Well probably not if you want to endear yourself to this community, but there is nothing wrong with selling at reasonable market value. You would be a fool not to. Hook your friends up, but don't have a notion that you have to lowball yourself and don't be a greedy dick I say.

    Flipping (IMO) is the intent to buy something new for resale profit. Speculative flipping is more of a long term game where you're not really a fan but you hoard hyped toys and then cash in down the road.

    This table everyone speaks of just sounds like speculative flipping or basically someone(s) cashing out being a tad greedy and had the setup to give it a go, but hey sounds like everyone basically said '"fuck those prices" so what's the big deal? I'd be more concerned if punters were lined up buying everything they had at the prices described.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  13. Michael Beverage

    Michael Beverage Comment King

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I'm gonna sell the sucklord keshi I bought for a dollar each at dcon for 3 dollars. 5 x 3= 15.00

    I'm rich, biatch!
     
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  14. super77m

    super77m Comment King

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Sometimes I think the header art is so cool or hand drawn, or the packaging is so amazing that I see them as a unit and hate to open the bag and separate them. I have some beautiful hand painted Bwana headers with toys still in the bag thst I’m aching to open. My resolve lasted about 5 minutes with the MVH junk food toy, that I ripped it open so hard I think there’s tinsel stuck in my hair to this day.
     
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  15. MonstaIslandCzar

    MonstaIslandCzar Addicted

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    The interesting part to me is that people will overlook the fact that they are flipping these new kumon. Cost was about $75 shipped from Dennis just a few weeks ago. They were selling for $150? That's the definition of flipping. Who cares about anything else they were selling. This answers the question about flipping pretty clearly. It's like the tired defense "well I sold these other toys for less and lost money so its cool that I flipped these." :roll:
    The secrecy is the perpetrator around here. I agree that it's an area of much debate, but the above scenario is pretty well spelled out in this very board's rules. It doesn't have to be a witch hunt. If someone is blatantly flipping based on the definition of the board, I don't see why it can't be posted here. Well, I think I can see why...too many OG members would be brought to light, others who pretend to condemn but will pay whatever for their hype fix, and those who are afraid to burn any bridges or don't have the guts to out fellow collectors. I think a lot of people just don't care anymore.
    I think the biggest argument is that people can do whatever they want with their toys. I agree with this statement. I just don't understand how this gets confused with people calling out flippers. You can do whatever you want with your toys, but just like free speech, people can call you an asshole and the community can agree. Feel free to scalp money from fellow collectors but don't get defensive when people call you out for the kind of person you are presenting yourself as.
    There are also several board members who are still buying toys from here and reselling in their "stores." So there's the problem of OG members selling to these people knowing damn well what's going to happen and not giving a shit. It's in line with the state of humanity these days...not giving a shit about anyone but me :cry:
     
  16. Michael Beverage

    Michael Beverage Comment King

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    This really is a complex issue that gets rehashed ad nauseum, and is certainly not isolated to Japanese toys.

    I think the community wants to be able to have clear-cut answers but in reality, like many issues in life, there are none.

    Bottom line, if you are selling a newly released toy for multiples of its retail price, that is flipping pure and simple.

    But I echo other's sentiment here, if a toy was released 5-10 years ago and the market still strongly supports a higher price, and you are expecting close to retail, then your view is just divorced from reality. I'm not saying those prices are always justifiable, but to get upset about them is a total waste of time. I have sold stuff for substantially below market value to friends before more than a few times, and I really appreciate and respect others that do so. @animator is a case in point. His board sales are incredible and he really hooks up community members with phenomenal prices.. But I don't feel the need to condemn or ostracize someone selling a toy for a higher price if it has been out for years and the market clearly reflects that price. The grey area is, how much more are they selling it for vs retail.

    Also, a universal truth in this hobby is that: If you are a true collector, and really love toys, I mean REALLY love them for their design, history, nostalgia, personal connections to the maker, etc. etc. etc and not just for the exclusivity or bragging rights, then you are going to lose money in this hobby. A LOT of money, depending on how crazy you are about the hobby. Real collectors will hold onto their collections through popularity or 'market' cycles because they care more about the joy their collections bring them than the artificial, temporary value the market assigns.

    We are not buying stocks or real estate. We are collecting weird-ass vinyl toys that hardly anyone gives a shit about outside of our small subset of collectors. And their popularity comes and goes. It's not a rational hobby for adults. It's quite silly, really. That's why I love it so much.

    I am guilty of overpaying in the past and as time as gone on, I've wised up quite a bit. But I will still overpay occasionally for a grail that I've been searching for, and I'm totally okay with that. And if you are not, I really don't care. I don't tell other people how to collect their toys, and I do feel some level of offense when others try to tell me how I should collect.

    I am a weird bird in that I appreciate the entire spectrum of collectors and collecting mentalities, except those that are purely in it for short term monetary gain. Those folks are easy to spot after you've been in the hobby for a while.
     
  17. animator

    animator Mr. Freshly Smacked Ass Staff Member

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    It's also interesting to me that these are sold at a venue amongst the comfort of friends but aren't sold here, Instagram, or even ebay where we commonly go to buy stuff. Which are also places where people are quick to haze/shame, and it becomes a public record for all to see including the creators of the toys.
     
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  18. SaintOfSpinners

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    The reason it might have seemed like a specifically Chinese oriented flipping scene was the location. San Gabriel Valley. I am sure there are a lot of new collectors, as well as flippers, from this area. But I haven't seen any of the new Itokin pieces appear on the main Chinese site and three Spacemen appeared and disappeared for $500 each on yja last night. Flipping is cross cultural.

    I am putting a few non_SB toys on ebay soon because the people I thought might want them at cost didn't. So the next path I have in passing them on is to auction them. In that case I can appear as a flipper, if I make money, but I'll start at cost too and just see what happens by necessity.

    I'd like to not go to dCon next year. I never really end up getting anything besides Itokin and it is a lot of work for the briefest hellos. I am just not a social person. But, I did have a good time. Itokin and Brian made my year! I am appreciative of Henry's efforts. And I did something for a few people, one of whose reactions was priceless and in itself worth all the effort of attending.

    I think the only thing that can be done about the flipping is larger runs. Our scene is so much bigger than before and runs need to be 100, not 30, except for one offs. You know 100 spacemen, or kumon, or koningu, or whatever are still going to sell out mighty quick. More money for the artists and less games for the fans. That's the only solution I can see that works for everyone.
     
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  19. gatiio

    gatiio Side Dealer

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I've always wanted to go to Dcon, it seemed like such a wonderful time and so low stakes compared to all the other california-based hype-fests. This year through instagram and now reading all of this, my excitement has finally receded.

    I hope these waves and disrupting of market stabilizes soon, but for the time being there seems to be a new NNN brand and a sucker for it in vinyl every damn week. That is just a reality we all have to live with now.
     
  20. Lttr Prssd

    Lttr Prssd Addicted

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Too bad we didn't take that guy up on drafting a Toy Collectors Bill of Rights!
     
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  21. ultrakaiju

    ultrakaiju Die-Cast Staff Member

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Haha, well my friend, come on over, you are welcome anytime. Considering I wrote this at 6am before jumping out the door (and yes, whilst drinking my coffee) I am surprised it came out anything close to coherent. ;)

    Any you are completely right of course. Some of my most precious items I wouldn't trade for anything, but that is also to say that probably the majority of 'collectors' wouldn't give them a second glance in a dime bin; and you know? I am totally fine with that. I should have said is as 'I don't collect "objectively valuable toys", which really, is sort of all of them I suppose, if you really wanna break it down.

    I should also throw in a thank you to David for starting this thread, because, no matter how many times the issue gets bandied about, I do think there is always insight to be had and lessons to be learned, for newcomers as well as some oldtimers of sofubi.
     
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  22. Lixx

    Lixx Mr. Grumpy™

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    Why do some people get a pass? I blame millennials.....LOL I had to ;)
     
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  23. foto junkaay

    foto junkaay Addicted

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    So what I got out of this was:

    flipping old toys = ok
    flipping new toys = not ok
    your wallet = your money
    price too high = don't buy

    To echo @gazpacho at the end of the day we make our own choices of what is acceptable to us and what is not. I'm guilty of overpaying for things, but that was my own fault. If you feel things are too expensive (can't afford), but has a right to be due to age and rarity, say good luck and move on. If it's a new item that was released 2 days ago and too high, call them out and move on. Lots of whispering does not help the community if that is what we call ourselves.
     
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  24. animator

    animator Mr. Freshly Smacked Ass Staff Member

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    I'll trade you some avocado toast(too old of a reference, or not old enough?) for any toy in your collection.
     
  25. noeleaser

    noeleaser Toy Prince

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    Why do some people get a pass when it comes to flipping toys?
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
     

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